CCBC-Net Archives
Re: for Mr. Tingle
- Contemporary messages sorted: [ by date ] [ by subject ] [ by author ]
From: jeanne_at_theroadrunnerpress.com
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 14:56:19 -0600 (CST)
I, too luv'd the owl reference. Amazing how cultures differ. We just did a book with an author of Czechoslovakian roots, and her people revered owls and saw them as messengers from the other side.
But ... and I almost don't dare to broach this: who determines whether say a Choctaw or Kiowa or an Irish or a Czech is Choctaw, Kiowa, Irish, Czech enough? are there times it's okay to mix-and-match?
There seems to be a consensus that traditional depictions (so often done not just by whites but also Native artists) may contribute to the misconception of American Indians being extinct or only historic. But who is to say if a Choctaw or Kiowa artist's art is Choctaw/Kiowa/Navajo enough?
Artists tend to be free spirits. I remember how single-minded and original Allan Houser was. Artists don't tend to like to be told what to paint, as their art comes from both nature and nurture and experience and an evolving people, hence the blonde Creek teen I lunched with yesterday. Jeanne, The RoadRunner Press
-----Original Message----- From: "Norma Jean Sawicki" <nsawicki_at_nyc.rr.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 2:23pm To: "tim tingle" <timtingle_at_hotmail.com>, "CCBC-Net Network" <ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu> Cc: "horning_at_education.wisc.edu" <horning_at_education.wisc.edu>, "Greg Rodgers" <grodgers3@cox.net> Subject: Re: [ccbc-net] for Mr. Tingle
Tim, Many thanks for the following. If I were still in publishing, I would ask, beg, plead for you to write a work of nonfiction for anglo kids, ages 7-9 that would introduce them to your culture /the tribal nations, starting with the word "Indian." If not published by an anglo, it should be freelanced to an anglo for a reader's report…and not an anglo who has been wonderfully educated, and may have forgotten what was originally not known. And, no…I am not asking/hinting for work. Different but related, I published terrific books about science for young kids because I knew nothing about science which was hard for me… writers I worked with knew it…during an editorial session, a well known science writer affectionately said…you really are stupid in science! The knowledge /passion you and others have must become more mainstream..historical fiction/fiction is fabulous , nonfiction would be too,… As to the question about illustrators…my feathers were not ruffled, I promise. Most mainstream publishers would work very hard to find an illustrator who is Puerto Rican to illustrate a Puerto Rican folktale, etc…Your answer did not come as a surprise…the surprise, wonderful education was in the detail…for instance, a Choctaw would never paint an owl as anything other than the epitome of evil. More material for "that" to-be book…Norma Jean
On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:23 PM, tim tingle wrote:
Norma,
Thank you for the question. Hoke, it requires a bit of background info. In none of the 300-plus Native American languages still spoken in the USA today, is there a single word that could be translated as "Indian." We use that term, or other similar terms, because we recognize that non-Indian folks will know what we are talking about....sort of. "We" have never thought of ourselves, except in a few isolated situations, as part of a larger ethno-political group. I am not Indian or Native American or First Peoples or American Indian––I am Choctaw. Yes, I know I'm contradicting myself, and I'm just beginning!
Hoke. Here's the part that usually ruffles non-Indian feathers.
To think that a painter of an Indian nation could understand in depth the culture of another Indian nation, because it is located on the same continent, is to think that a Russian painter could illustrate–with understanding–a story set in Barcelona and written by a Spanish author. We are that different, in our history and our core beliefs.
Of course, many tribal nations are related by language (Choctaws and Chickasaws) or geography, so we have a certain level of understanding. But a Dine painter would never paint the spirit people in the closing scene of "Saltypie." Nor would a Choctaw ever paint an owl as anything other than the epitome of evil.
I do share true-life tales of my experiences visiting other tribal communities, and with permission I wrote a collection of southeastern Indian stories. When writing outside of my own community, I seek the advice of someone with a strong understanding of that culture, and "run" the final product by them for approval. Blessings, Tim
> From: [mailto:nsawicki_at_nyc.rr.com] nsawicki_at_nyc.rr.com
> Subject: [ccbc-net] for Mr. Tingle
> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:08:22 -0500
> To: [mailto:ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu] ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu
>
> Thank you ever so much….I appreciate your generosity in agreeing to take questions, and participate in this discussion which I look forward to following…
>
> A question…In your editor/publisher's terrific posting about you/your work, she said when material requires an illustrator, they look for, and invite an illustrator from the same tribe as the author to illustrate the work. Is it believed an illustrator from the same tribe will have an emotional attachment to, and an understanding of the work that an illustrator from another tribe may not necessarily have? Many thanks…Norma Jean
> ---
>
You are currently subscribed to ccbc-net as: jeanne_at_theroadrunnerpress.com. To post to the list, send message to...ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu To receive messages in digest format, send a message to...ccbc-net-request_at_lists.wisc.edu
...and include only this command in the body of the message...set ccbc-net digest
CCBC-Net Archives The CCBC-Net archives are available to all CCBC-Net listserv members. The archives are organized by month and year. A list of discussion topics (including month/year) is available at...http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/ccbcnet/archives.asp To access the archives, go to...http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/ccbc-net
...and enter the following when prompted...username: ccbc-net password: Look4Posts
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 14:56:19 -0600 (CST)
I, too luv'd the owl reference. Amazing how cultures differ. We just did a book with an author of Czechoslovakian roots, and her people revered owls and saw them as messengers from the other side.
But ... and I almost don't dare to broach this: who determines whether say a Choctaw or Kiowa or an Irish or a Czech is Choctaw, Kiowa, Irish, Czech enough? are there times it's okay to mix-and-match?
There seems to be a consensus that traditional depictions (so often done not just by whites but also Native artists) may contribute to the misconception of American Indians being extinct or only historic. But who is to say if a Choctaw or Kiowa artist's art is Choctaw/Kiowa/Navajo enough?
Artists tend to be free spirits. I remember how single-minded and original Allan Houser was. Artists don't tend to like to be told what to paint, as their art comes from both nature and nurture and experience and an evolving people, hence the blonde Creek teen I lunched with yesterday. Jeanne, The RoadRunner Press
-----Original Message----- From: "Norma Jean Sawicki" <nsawicki_at_nyc.rr.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 2:23pm To: "tim tingle" <timtingle_at_hotmail.com>, "CCBC-Net Network" <ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu> Cc: "horning_at_education.wisc.edu" <horning_at_education.wisc.edu>, "Greg Rodgers" <grodgers3@cox.net> Subject: Re: [ccbc-net] for Mr. Tingle
Tim, Many thanks for the following. If I were still in publishing, I would ask, beg, plead for you to write a work of nonfiction for anglo kids, ages 7-9 that would introduce them to your culture /the tribal nations, starting with the word "Indian." If not published by an anglo, it should be freelanced to an anglo for a reader's report…and not an anglo who has been wonderfully educated, and may have forgotten what was originally not known. And, no…I am not asking/hinting for work. Different but related, I published terrific books about science for young kids because I knew nothing about science which was hard for me… writers I worked with knew it…during an editorial session, a well known science writer affectionately said…you really are stupid in science! The knowledge /passion you and others have must become more mainstream..historical fiction/fiction is fabulous , nonfiction would be too,… As to the question about illustrators…my feathers were not ruffled, I promise. Most mainstream publishers would work very hard to find an illustrator who is Puerto Rican to illustrate a Puerto Rican folktale, etc…Your answer did not come as a surprise…the surprise, wonderful education was in the detail…for instance, a Choctaw would never paint an owl as anything other than the epitome of evil. More material for "that" to-be book…Norma Jean
On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:23 PM, tim tingle wrote:
Norma,
Thank you for the question. Hoke, it requires a bit of background info. In none of the 300-plus Native American languages still spoken in the USA today, is there a single word that could be translated as "Indian." We use that term, or other similar terms, because we recognize that non-Indian folks will know what we are talking about....sort of. "We" have never thought of ourselves, except in a few isolated situations, as part of a larger ethno-political group. I am not Indian or Native American or First Peoples or American Indian––I am Choctaw. Yes, I know I'm contradicting myself, and I'm just beginning!
Hoke. Here's the part that usually ruffles non-Indian feathers.
To think that a painter of an Indian nation could understand in depth the culture of another Indian nation, because it is located on the same continent, is to think that a Russian painter could illustrate–with understanding–a story set in Barcelona and written by a Spanish author. We are that different, in our history and our core beliefs.
Of course, many tribal nations are related by language (Choctaws and Chickasaws) or geography, so we have a certain level of understanding. But a Dine painter would never paint the spirit people in the closing scene of "Saltypie." Nor would a Choctaw ever paint an owl as anything other than the epitome of evil.
I do share true-life tales of my experiences visiting other tribal communities, and with permission I wrote a collection of southeastern Indian stories. When writing outside of my own community, I seek the advice of someone with a strong understanding of that culture, and "run" the final product by them for approval. Blessings, Tim
> From: [mailto:nsawicki_at_nyc.rr.com] nsawicki_at_nyc.rr.com
> Subject: [ccbc-net] for Mr. Tingle
> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 12:08:22 -0500
> To: [mailto:ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu] ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu
>
> Thank you ever so much….I appreciate your generosity in agreeing to take questions, and participate in this discussion which I look forward to following…
>
> A question…In your editor/publisher's terrific posting about you/your work, she said when material requires an illustrator, they look for, and invite an illustrator from the same tribe as the author to illustrate the work. Is it believed an illustrator from the same tribe will have an emotional attachment to, and an understanding of the work that an illustrator from another tribe may not necessarily have? Many thanks…Norma Jean
> ---
>
You are currently subscribed to ccbc-net as: jeanne_at_theroadrunnerpress.com. To post to the list, send message to...ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu To receive messages in digest format, send a message to...ccbc-net-request_at_lists.wisc.edu
...and include only this command in the body of the message...set ccbc-net digest
CCBC-Net Archives The CCBC-Net archives are available to all CCBC-Net listserv members. The archives are organized by month and year. A list of discussion topics (including month/year) is available at...http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/ccbcnet/archives.asp To access the archives, go to...http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/ccbc-net
...and enter the following when prompted...username: ccbc-net password: Look4Posts
---
You are currently subscribed to ccbc-net as: ccbc-archive_at_post.education.wisc.edu.
To post to the list, send message to: ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu
To receive messages in digest format, send a message to...
ccbc-net-request_at_lists.wisc.edu
...and include only this command in the body of the message:
set ccbc-net digest
CCBC-Net Archives
The CCBC-Net archives are available to all CCBC-Net listserv members. The archives are organized by month and year. A list of discussion topics (including month/year) is available at http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/ccbcnet/archives.asp
To access the archives, go to:
http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/ccbc-net
and enter the following:
username: ccbc-net
password: Look4Posts
Received on Wed 19 Feb 2014 02:57:05 PM CST
