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Re: Multiculturalism and the unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty (sigh)
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From: Barbara Binns <bab9660_at_yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 15:24:13 -0800 (PST)
I joined this list recently and have been mostly lurking.I have intended to post more often, but have been put off by some of the responses to people who disagree. And I do find Charles intimidating, so this may be my last post. But I have to say one thing.
I have listened to the “people of color don’t read” thing so long I don’t know how I keep from exploding. Does no one see what an absolute insult that is? Publishers and marketing do not know how to reach that section of the reading public and have given up. Just as I gave up on bookstores and the big five (it was six back then) years ago when I was hunting for reading material for my daughter. I chose to stop wasting time hunting for something that was not on the shelf. I almost never use publisher catalogs (although I get them) or major bookstores when I am shopping for books. And I do read, a lot. So does my child and the people I know. It is an incredible insult to hear time and again that people of color do not read. To me a bigger truth is that many publishers and bookstores do not know how to market to people of color. I frankly find many of the catalogs, book displays, and shelf arrangements to be subtle, and sometimes not-so-subtle signs that I am wasting my time even looking because there is nothing for me, as a reader of color, there. I know I can only give anecdotal evidence, one person’s experience. I happen to be more than just a POC who reads, I worked in business and have a science background and I am aware you can prove and disprove just about anything by manipulating statistics. I also know the effect that not having diversity in reading material can do, because I was also a child. I was an avid reader from the beginning and I grabbed everything. Had a poll taker asked me then I would have said everything was fine in the book world. Until the day I finally had a book that featured a black main character. I don’t remember the name of the book, I just remember the feeling, the OMG, you mean we can be heroes too feeling. I literally had not realized there was a hole inside me until I found something that filled it. I know a lot of kids these days who are not as blind as I was, who know there is something missing. I do library and school visits, do booktalks to students. BTW, I have even had white kids come after some of the books I discuss because they want something different too. Because it does something to them to never see any other group or ethnicity in the main role either. As a parent I set out to make sure she had diversity in her reading material. I didn’t spend a lot of time at the big publishers or at B&N or other major bookstores. I buy most of my books at bookfairs, and community events, independent bookstores (I mourn their loss) and independent authors (I praise their rise). Amazon is now my friend. I made certain she had books about people from all over the world, and different ethnicities and races. Our reading, and those of my neighbors, may not have counted in the statistics people site, but we read. A lot. I’m not blaming the publishers or booksellers. But think again about the idea that they would go after a market IF ONLY existed. The first step is believing the market is there. Throwing the occasional book about a character of color over the wall shows nothing. Whether it sinks or swims, it is lost in the thousands of other books published each year. It is easy to say the book failed because those people don’t read books. It’s a little harder to think that maybe marketing doesn’t know how to reach those readers and some fundamental changes may be needed to tap into that market. I am also an author. I know the issue is even bigger, and goes earlier. There are authors, including authors of color, who do not believe that publishers really want multicultural books. As authors, we are told to give publishers more of what they are publishing now and not waste their time or ours sending them anything else. That is held to be such a truism that I have a black author friend who writes only white characters because she is certain nothing else has a chance with her publisher. Add to that the nearly two year time between the day a manuscript is sent to a publisher and the day it winds up on the shelf – and nothing much is going to change. Final thoughts. I have had voice a concern that white girls might get turned off my my books. I just wonder if they ever ask if kids of color might get turned off by any of the books they publish? If you don’t even consider them, why be surprised if they don’t purchase? B. A. Binns 2010 National Readers Choice Award Winner 2012 YALSA Quick Picks for Reluctant Young Adult Readers 2012-13 Eliot Rosewater Indiana High School Book Award Nominee Stories of Real Boys Growing Into Real Menwebsite - http://www.babinns.com
On Sunday, February 16, 2014 4:32 PM, Christine Taylor-Butler <kansascitymom_at_earthlink.net> wrote:
Charles,
I did not misunderstand and my inclusion of that word was facetious. I've been following your prolific posts of lengthy statistics both here and on the Rutger's Listserv. I drew the statements directly from your own posts. In almost every case you respond to someone's counterpoint by dismissing it as "ineffective" or saying "it isn't what you want." You often end with troubling statements, including the implication that while you are applying "critical thinking" your peers on this discussion do not. So I hope you'll excuse me - one elite boarding school/IVY league grad data cruncher to another in returning the favor.
Here are a few of the many examples of your posts:
1. On Feb 17 you dismissed the experience of others on the list while inserting your own experience as valid by stating:
"As an aside, as a bookseller, I see white buyers and middle class buyers of any race, more interested in international stories than in domestic conformity literature – interpret that as you wish. The barrier is clearly not the issue of color per se or of differences in culture. "
2. On March 29 you wrote:
"The gap between demographics and the book buying populations arises because of differentials in the volume of book reading and book buying being done by the respective groups. The necessary corollary conclusion is that increased supply won’t do much if there is not increased demand. (Also see Richard Nash’s article What is the business of Literature? in which he observes that “Abundance, it turns out, is a much bigger problem to solve than scarcity”).
The fact that publishers are significantly oversupplying some groups and undersupplying others would seem to clear publishers of the charge of conscious or unconscious discrimination.
3. When I suggested that booksellers and librarians could find new sources of books by visiting less "marketed" authors and illustrators at a convention - a post that generated positive responses you responded with:
"I would like to offer an alternative perspective on the No “cost” way to support diversity. I think what is being suggested is probably counterproductive but there is a far more productive alternative that could be pursued. My experience is that no cost solutions are usually closely correlated with ineffective solutions."
4. On Feb 6, In arguing why CSK winners aren't included in other major awards you suggest that low numbers might lead to lower quality of content:
"That explains why the Caldecott and Newbery will always get more attention than any of the more specific prizes. Since both are relatively unrestricted, their average quality is statistically always going to be equal to or much higher than any specialized prize drawing from a smaller pool of candidates, just like the average athletic prowess in my home is statistically always going to at best be equal to but likely much lower than that of the state. "
…..end quotes…..
Do you see the trend? Our experience - even those of us who are ethnic - with the target audience is trumped by "your" experience as a white male bookseller whose own site provides little or no content written by or for people of color. So who are you to suggest there is or is not a need in the face of others who are asking? It's like saying there is no need for a specific brand of beverage because the underrepresented population is content to buy what is available already. Or because they don't drink beverages in large quantities (not knowing that the second is true because they detest the flavor).
Magic Johnson, in opening a theater in Harlem, introduced "red pop" and "hot dogs" - both popular with African Americans. And also something white cinema owners at the time didn't realize because they analyzed numbers and buying patterns of existing patrons rather than get to know the potential ones.
That, my dear, is known as a market opportunity. No different than a certain major greeting card company currently shutting down plants and putting people out of work because its "trusted" data dismissed the impact of the internet early on (despite the push from early adopters), the male CEO rejected the idea of marketing cards to men (49% of the population), and concluded People of Color didn't buy cards (based on focus group data in which those people were screened out as candidates for the panels) Now it's too late for them to play catch-up in the age of Twitter and Facebook and instant messaging.
I would ask you to consider that your attempt at "objective" analysis of the current state of multicultural publishing absent any real hands-on experience with the target consumer might be heavily influenced by "white privilege" Hence your statements show a consistent refusal to consider as valid any of the qualitative components implicit in your numbers. Numbers, absent information on who was polled, how, when or why are often misleading. Especially in light of such common knowledge that many people of color refuse to answer polls, are suspicious of them, or are not polled at all having been screened out of the sample. They are also influenced heavily by who is conducting or paying for the research (big Pharma is a great example of erroneous data and conclusions which lead to a poor outcome). Still, you have rejected out of hand real-world experience of people on CCBC - those people who actually work with the target audience (or ARE the
audience) on a regular basis.
I understand that YOU want a thorough statistical analysis, but sometimes it is important to put numbers aside as they can be easily viewed through the wrong lens. As I looked at your background it is similar to mine - down to the elite boarding school beginnings and top IVY quality college. But I am a person of color who grew up and still lives among the target population in an urban area where 80+% of the population in the local public school district is a child of color and a large percentage qualify for free and reduced lunch. Even still - many of those children are searching for books about themselves. One librarian in Chicago even enticed children to read by allowing access to street-lit. I doubt your "numbers" reflect data points like that. Or that even in low literacy households, authors like Zane are popular among the women. Like many on CCBC I have seen the positive effects of presenting literature filled with faces that look like the
child as it shapes their view of their place in the world from birth through college and beyond. While books are not the only influencer - media is a significant factor - it remains the most important as we prepare students to function in a multicultural setting such as the workplace or college.
You have the benefit of believing that race isn't a factor because the media predominantly presents your race as the "universal" standard.
Again - I've read your lengthy statistical posts on both this list and Rutgers. May I suggest now that you practice more "active" listening towards those of us who not only have real experience, but have had success in effecting change within that population. I suggest you put aside your data for some grass-roots involvement that will better broaden your lens.
In good health, Christine
On Feb 16, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Charles Bayless wrote:
Christine,
>
>Well yes, you do misunderstand. Pretty comprehensively. You won’t find any of your statements in my comments. I think what I am doing is exactly what we say ought to be done – applying critical thinking to our beliefs in an epistemological fashion.
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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 15:24:13 -0800 (PST)
I joined this list recently and have been mostly lurking.I have intended to post more often, but have been put off by some of the responses to people who disagree. And I do find Charles intimidating, so this may be my last post. But I have to say one thing.
I have listened to the “people of color don’t read” thing so long I don’t know how I keep from exploding. Does no one see what an absolute insult that is? Publishers and marketing do not know how to reach that section of the reading public and have given up. Just as I gave up on bookstores and the big five (it was six back then) years ago when I was hunting for reading material for my daughter. I chose to stop wasting time hunting for something that was not on the shelf. I almost never use publisher catalogs (although I get them) or major bookstores when I am shopping for books. And I do read, a lot. So does my child and the people I know. It is an incredible insult to hear time and again that people of color do not read. To me a bigger truth is that many publishers and bookstores do not know how to market to people of color. I frankly find many of the catalogs, book displays, and shelf arrangements to be subtle, and sometimes not-so-subtle signs that I am wasting my time even looking because there is nothing for me, as a reader of color, there. I know I can only give anecdotal evidence, one person’s experience. I happen to be more than just a POC who reads, I worked in business and have a science background and I am aware you can prove and disprove just about anything by manipulating statistics. I also know the effect that not having diversity in reading material can do, because I was also a child. I was an avid reader from the beginning and I grabbed everything. Had a poll taker asked me then I would have said everything was fine in the book world. Until the day I finally had a book that featured a black main character. I don’t remember the name of the book, I just remember the feeling, the OMG, you mean we can be heroes too feeling. I literally had not realized there was a hole inside me until I found something that filled it. I know a lot of kids these days who are not as blind as I was, who know there is something missing. I do library and school visits, do booktalks to students. BTW, I have even had white kids come after some of the books I discuss because they want something different too. Because it does something to them to never see any other group or ethnicity in the main role either. As a parent I set out to make sure she had diversity in her reading material. I didn’t spend a lot of time at the big publishers or at B&N or other major bookstores. I buy most of my books at bookfairs, and community events, independent bookstores (I mourn their loss) and independent authors (I praise their rise). Amazon is now my friend. I made certain she had books about people from all over the world, and different ethnicities and races. Our reading, and those of my neighbors, may not have counted in the statistics people site, but we read. A lot. I’m not blaming the publishers or booksellers. But think again about the idea that they would go after a market IF ONLY existed. The first step is believing the market is there. Throwing the occasional book about a character of color over the wall shows nothing. Whether it sinks or swims, it is lost in the thousands of other books published each year. It is easy to say the book failed because those people don’t read books. It’s a little harder to think that maybe marketing doesn’t know how to reach those readers and some fundamental changes may be needed to tap into that market. I am also an author. I know the issue is even bigger, and goes earlier. There are authors, including authors of color, who do not believe that publishers really want multicultural books. As authors, we are told to give publishers more of what they are publishing now and not waste their time or ours sending them anything else. That is held to be such a truism that I have a black author friend who writes only white characters because she is certain nothing else has a chance with her publisher. Add to that the nearly two year time between the day a manuscript is sent to a publisher and the day it winds up on the shelf – and nothing much is going to change. Final thoughts. I have had voice a concern that white girls might get turned off my my books. I just wonder if they ever ask if kids of color might get turned off by any of the books they publish? If you don’t even consider them, why be surprised if they don’t purchase? B. A. Binns 2010 National Readers Choice Award Winner 2012 YALSA Quick Picks for Reluctant Young Adult Readers 2012-13 Eliot Rosewater Indiana High School Book Award Nominee Stories of Real Boys Growing Into Real Menwebsite - http://www.babinns.com
On Sunday, February 16, 2014 4:32 PM, Christine Taylor-Butler <kansascitymom_at_earthlink.net> wrote:
Charles,
I did not misunderstand and my inclusion of that word was facetious. I've been following your prolific posts of lengthy statistics both here and on the Rutger's Listserv. I drew the statements directly from your own posts. In almost every case you respond to someone's counterpoint by dismissing it as "ineffective" or saying "it isn't what you want." You often end with troubling statements, including the implication that while you are applying "critical thinking" your peers on this discussion do not. So I hope you'll excuse me - one elite boarding school/IVY league grad data cruncher to another in returning the favor.
Here are a few of the many examples of your posts:
1. On Feb 17 you dismissed the experience of others on the list while inserting your own experience as valid by stating:
"As an aside, as a bookseller, I see white buyers and middle class buyers of any race, more interested in international stories than in domestic conformity literature – interpret that as you wish. The barrier is clearly not the issue of color per se or of differences in culture. "
2. On March 29 you wrote:
"The gap between demographics and the book buying populations arises because of differentials in the volume of book reading and book buying being done by the respective groups. The necessary corollary conclusion is that increased supply won’t do much if there is not increased demand. (Also see Richard Nash’s article What is the business of Literature? in which he observes that “Abundance, it turns out, is a much bigger problem to solve than scarcity”).
The fact that publishers are significantly oversupplying some groups and undersupplying others would seem to clear publishers of the charge of conscious or unconscious discrimination.
3. When I suggested that booksellers and librarians could find new sources of books by visiting less "marketed" authors and illustrators at a convention - a post that generated positive responses you responded with:
"I would like to offer an alternative perspective on the No “cost” way to support diversity. I think what is being suggested is probably counterproductive but there is a far more productive alternative that could be pursued. My experience is that no cost solutions are usually closely correlated with ineffective solutions."
4. On Feb 6, In arguing why CSK winners aren't included in other major awards you suggest that low numbers might lead to lower quality of content:
"That explains why the Caldecott and Newbery will always get more attention than any of the more specific prizes. Since both are relatively unrestricted, their average quality is statistically always going to be equal to or much higher than any specialized prize drawing from a smaller pool of candidates, just like the average athletic prowess in my home is statistically always going to at best be equal to but likely much lower than that of the state. "
…..end quotes…..
Do you see the trend? Our experience - even those of us who are ethnic - with the target audience is trumped by "your" experience as a white male bookseller whose own site provides little or no content written by or for people of color. So who are you to suggest there is or is not a need in the face of others who are asking? It's like saying there is no need for a specific brand of beverage because the underrepresented population is content to buy what is available already. Or because they don't drink beverages in large quantities (not knowing that the second is true because they detest the flavor).
Magic Johnson, in opening a theater in Harlem, introduced "red pop" and "hot dogs" - both popular with African Americans. And also something white cinema owners at the time didn't realize because they analyzed numbers and buying patterns of existing patrons rather than get to know the potential ones.
That, my dear, is known as a market opportunity. No different than a certain major greeting card company currently shutting down plants and putting people out of work because its "trusted" data dismissed the impact of the internet early on (despite the push from early adopters), the male CEO rejected the idea of marketing cards to men (49% of the population), and concluded People of Color didn't buy cards (based on focus group data in which those people were screened out as candidates for the panels) Now it's too late for them to play catch-up in the age of Twitter and Facebook and instant messaging.
I would ask you to consider that your attempt at "objective" analysis of the current state of multicultural publishing absent any real hands-on experience with the target consumer might be heavily influenced by "white privilege" Hence your statements show a consistent refusal to consider as valid any of the qualitative components implicit in your numbers. Numbers, absent information on who was polled, how, when or why are often misleading. Especially in light of such common knowledge that many people of color refuse to answer polls, are suspicious of them, or are not polled at all having been screened out of the sample. They are also influenced heavily by who is conducting or paying for the research (big Pharma is a great example of erroneous data and conclusions which lead to a poor outcome). Still, you have rejected out of hand real-world experience of people on CCBC - those people who actually work with the target audience (or ARE the
audience) on a regular basis.
I understand that YOU want a thorough statistical analysis, but sometimes it is important to put numbers aside as they can be easily viewed through the wrong lens. As I looked at your background it is similar to mine - down to the elite boarding school beginnings and top IVY quality college. But I am a person of color who grew up and still lives among the target population in an urban area where 80+% of the population in the local public school district is a child of color and a large percentage qualify for free and reduced lunch. Even still - many of those children are searching for books about themselves. One librarian in Chicago even enticed children to read by allowing access to street-lit. I doubt your "numbers" reflect data points like that. Or that even in low literacy households, authors like Zane are popular among the women. Like many on CCBC I have seen the positive effects of presenting literature filled with faces that look like the
child as it shapes their view of their place in the world from birth through college and beyond. While books are not the only influencer - media is a significant factor - it remains the most important as we prepare students to function in a multicultural setting such as the workplace or college.
You have the benefit of believing that race isn't a factor because the media predominantly presents your race as the "universal" standard.
Again - I've read your lengthy statistical posts on both this list and Rutgers. May I suggest now that you practice more "active" listening towards those of us who not only have real experience, but have had success in effecting change within that population. I suggest you put aside your data for some grass-roots involvement that will better broaden your lens.
In good health, Christine
On Feb 16, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Charles Bayless wrote:
Christine,
>
>Well yes, you do misunderstand. Pretty comprehensively. You won’t find any of your statements in my comments. I think what I am doing is exactly what we say ought to be done – applying critical thinking to our beliefs in an epistemological fashion.
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Received on Sun 16 Feb 2014 05:27:35 PM CST
