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Re: sources and citation and indexes
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From: Meghan McCarthy <meghanmccarthy007_at_yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:52:06 -0700 (PDT)
Nancy, I'm not really following what you're saying. Are you indicating that you think writers of nonfiction should have a PhD? Or at least an MA? I have neither. There's a talent to writing nonfiction for kids and I don't think prolonging ones education is going to help. You also seem to think that nonfiction gets paid far less than fiction. I write nonfiction picture books and get paid the same as I did when I wrote my fiction picture books (actually better because my nonfiction books sell better). I don't think most nonfiction children's authors are writing academic books for tenure or any such thing.
1) It is very important that any author do his or her own fact checking 2) I think bibliographies are very important, though there is limited room when writing a picture book - most are 32 pages - mine are 40 (more pages cost more money!), and an author picks and chooses what to put in. Is it more important to list a few more books that he/she used or is it more important to have another page to write his or her story? 3) It's always helpful to have an editorial team to help fact check but you can't count on them - they consider it ultimately the author's job and it's even stated in the author's contract that any mistakes are solely the author's problem!
I have to get back to work (I'm on my break!) because even though I can afford to not have a job I still badly need healthcare. There's more that I want to write but maybe later.
meghan
________________________________
From: Nancy Thalia Reynolds To: ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu Sent: Mon, October 18, 2010 12:03:35 PM Subject:
sources and citation and indexes
I read with interest and agreed with Marc and Debbie's comments and suggestions. For authors who are not already scholars in some field that has required them to learn what we now think of as editorial skills--what, when, and how to cite--their style guide will almost certainly going to be whatever they were taught in high school, along with (for some) the 5 paragraph essay. A quick cram of the MLA style guide too, no doubt.
Those of us who write nonfiction for adults can certainly count on some measure of editorial budget and expertise, along with one's own post-secondary academic studies, to fall back on here.
I wonder how many writers of nonfiction have PhDs or even MAs of any kind that would have required them to make a good job of citation. I don't claim to know; I'm just wondering. The money is so limited in writing nonfiction (and not just for kids) that usually the author needs additional motivation or a trust fund in order to be able to afford to do it at all. The writer whose hope for a tenure track job in academe depends on being published does have such motivation. So does the ideologue with an axe to grind, political or otherwise. Others of us may be blessed with an understanding spouse or employer.
Many writers, if not most, write nonfiction books for kids in series and churn them out quickly in order to maximize the minimal income. I suspect most are write-for-hire contracts in which the author will receive no additional income, regardless of sales or lack of them, from royalties.
Meanwhile, fact checking for publishers is not a growth field of employment. I've been fortunate enough to have dedicated editors with the time and experience to query anything ambiguous or contradictory. I've almost never had an editor query my sources, however. And unlike academic writing, many general interest nonfiction books are not sent to readers with expertise in the field, a practice that may not cost much in dollars, but that takes a lot of time.
So what is an author to do? I worked for 20 years as a freelance editor to supplement my writing income and I've needed and called on that experience for every book. Even so, I invariably made some mistakes, most of which were spotted by editors, but not all.
When I began writing, publishers provided professional indexers to make an index for the book. The author's responsibility was confined to checking the index for accuracy. In recent years, many publishers have done away with that expense, telling their authors that they can either prepare the index themselves, or pay whomever the publisher hires to provide the index.
Indexing is a profession and one that requires training and probably a gift for the job, as well. That is why indexers command much more money than editors do (and why publishers have chosen indexers to eliminate). Any author can prepare an index, just as anyone who has mastered the alphabet and English language and usage can write a book.
For my last book, I prepared the index myself, a very difficult and politically resonant task, as my book was about how YA literature--fiction and nonfiction--treats mixed heritage (race, ethnicity, religion, adoption). I found the task very hard and also fascinating. I learned a lot about my own biases and about our language's biases and ambiguities. With indexes, we prioritize concepts, build them into hierarchies of significance. Our choices reflect our values for the material we work with.
For anyone interested in what an index really, I suggest Nancy Mulvany's marvelous INDEXING BOOKS. She also write the CMS chapter on indexing.
So to get back to our topic if you're still with me, I feel no discussion of nonfiction sourcing and citation, to which I add indexing, is complete without a look at the practicalities. If it is the author's ethical responsibility to provide such sourcing, how is she to do it if she lacks the education, time, and income to do so?
My hunch is that the most-read nonfiction for kids is series literature, often organized by topic (or "hot topic"). These generally provide brief sourcing, on about the same level as an article in a news magazine. Series that present different views as part of the format, i.e. essays from partisans on both sides of a controversial issue, often do a good job here. But others skate over issues and provide at best flimsy sourcing.
What I'd like to know is this: how can we expect that to change when nearly every authorial incentive pushes in the direction of superficiality?
Nancy Thalia Reynolds, MIXED HERITAGE IN YOUNG ADULT LITERATURE (Scarecrow Press, 2009)
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:52:06 -0700 (PDT)
Nancy, I'm not really following what you're saying. Are you indicating that you think writers of nonfiction should have a PhD? Or at least an MA? I have neither. There's a talent to writing nonfiction for kids and I don't think prolonging ones education is going to help. You also seem to think that nonfiction gets paid far less than fiction. I write nonfiction picture books and get paid the same as I did when I wrote my fiction picture books (actually better because my nonfiction books sell better). I don't think most nonfiction children's authors are writing academic books for tenure or any such thing.
1) It is very important that any author do his or her own fact checking 2) I think bibliographies are very important, though there is limited room when writing a picture book - most are 32 pages - mine are 40 (more pages cost more money!), and an author picks and chooses what to put in. Is it more important to list a few more books that he/she used or is it more important to have another page to write his or her story? 3) It's always helpful to have an editorial team to help fact check but you can't count on them - they consider it ultimately the author's job and it's even stated in the author's contract that any mistakes are solely the author's problem!
I have to get back to work (I'm on my break!) because even though I can afford to not have a job I still badly need healthcare. There's more that I want to write but maybe later.
meghan
________________________________
From: Nancy Thalia Reynolds To: ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu Sent: Mon, October 18, 2010 12:03:35 PM Subject:
sources and citation and indexes
I read with interest and agreed with Marc and Debbie's comments and suggestions. For authors who are not already scholars in some field that has required them to learn what we now think of as editorial skills--what, when, and how to cite--their style guide will almost certainly going to be whatever they were taught in high school, along with (for some) the 5 paragraph essay. A quick cram of the MLA style guide too, no doubt.
Those of us who write nonfiction for adults can certainly count on some measure of editorial budget and expertise, along with one's own post-secondary academic studies, to fall back on here.
I wonder how many writers of nonfiction have PhDs or even MAs of any kind that would have required them to make a good job of citation. I don't claim to know; I'm just wondering. The money is so limited in writing nonfiction (and not just for kids) that usually the author needs additional motivation or a trust fund in order to be able to afford to do it at all. The writer whose hope for a tenure track job in academe depends on being published does have such motivation. So does the ideologue with an axe to grind, political or otherwise. Others of us may be blessed with an understanding spouse or employer.
Many writers, if not most, write nonfiction books for kids in series and churn them out quickly in order to maximize the minimal income. I suspect most are write-for-hire contracts in which the author will receive no additional income, regardless of sales or lack of them, from royalties.
Meanwhile, fact checking for publishers is not a growth field of employment. I've been fortunate enough to have dedicated editors with the time and experience to query anything ambiguous or contradictory. I've almost never had an editor query my sources, however. And unlike academic writing, many general interest nonfiction books are not sent to readers with expertise in the field, a practice that may not cost much in dollars, but that takes a lot of time.
So what is an author to do? I worked for 20 years as a freelance editor to supplement my writing income and I've needed and called on that experience for every book. Even so, I invariably made some mistakes, most of which were spotted by editors, but not all.
When I began writing, publishers provided professional indexers to make an index for the book. The author's responsibility was confined to checking the index for accuracy. In recent years, many publishers have done away with that expense, telling their authors that they can either prepare the index themselves, or pay whomever the publisher hires to provide the index.
Indexing is a profession and one that requires training and probably a gift for the job, as well. That is why indexers command much more money than editors do (and why publishers have chosen indexers to eliminate). Any author can prepare an index, just as anyone who has mastered the alphabet and English language and usage can write a book.
For my last book, I prepared the index myself, a very difficult and politically resonant task, as my book was about how YA literature--fiction and nonfiction--treats mixed heritage (race, ethnicity, religion, adoption). I found the task very hard and also fascinating. I learned a lot about my own biases and about our language's biases and ambiguities. With indexes, we prioritize concepts, build them into hierarchies of significance. Our choices reflect our values for the material we work with.
For anyone interested in what an index really, I suggest Nancy Mulvany's marvelous INDEXING BOOKS. She also write the CMS chapter on indexing.
So to get back to our topic if you're still with me, I feel no discussion of nonfiction sourcing and citation, to which I add indexing, is complete without a look at the practicalities. If it is the author's ethical responsibility to provide such sourcing, how is she to do it if she lacks the education, time, and income to do so?
My hunch is that the most-read nonfiction for kids is series literature, often organized by topic (or "hot topic"). These generally provide brief sourcing, on about the same level as an article in a news magazine. Series that present different views as part of the format, i.e. essays from partisans on both sides of a controversial issue, often do a good job here. But others skate over issues and provide at best flimsy sourcing.
What I'd like to know is this: how can we expect that to change when nearly every authorial incentive pushes in the direction of superficiality?
Nancy Thalia Reynolds, MIXED HERITAGE IN YOUNG ADULT LITERATURE (Scarecrow Press, 2009)
---Received on Mon 18 Oct 2010 03:52:06 PM CDT
