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RE: Muslims and Muslim Cultures-accuracy
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From: Charles Bayless <charles.bayless_at_gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 13:53:28 -0400
Sharat,
You said regarding The Day of Ahmed's Secret (TDAS) that "I'll pass on child labor because I have no knowledge of that issue as it pertains to Egypt. . .
" The numbers for Egypt are:
Illiteracy Rate - 25% for males 35% for females.
Child Labor Rate - 15% of males under age 14 are in the labor force, 4% for females
Poverty Rate - 95% per the American definition of poverty, 25% by the Egyptian definition and 2% by the UN definition (living on less than $1.5 per day). US per capita GDP (per the World Bank) is $53,100 and Egypt's is
$3,300.
I think you are correct that what is being represented is urbanized fellaheen who we might term the working poor.
I think this discussion sheds light on one of the core issues in many of our conversations - differing bases for criticizing a book. Clearly, it is oxymoronic on the face of it to fact-check fiction. It is also unreasonable to expect a 32 page, 1,500 word picture book to address much more than the barest of basics or render anything in more than a superficial fashion. Given that TDAS was an (Arab World and Islamic Resources) AWAIR pick it is hard to see that it is deemed as being materially misrepresentative.
It appears to me that the complaint is not that the book is wrong in any significant way. A work of fiction can't be wrong. It also appears to me that the complaint is not that the book gives a wrong impression
(stereotypes). That particular claim appears fairly weak tea based on the numbers. It appears to me that the criticism comes down to a desire that the book should represent Egypt differently than the author chose to do.
Which is fine but I am not sure how useful it is as a basis for criticism. Everyone has a perspective or an argument they wish to advocate. I think Marc's earlier point that the author has no obligation to anyone other than themselves is entirely true. Da Vinci had no obligation to include the unpleasant rash on Mona Lisa's chin that he elected to omit.
I would go further and argue that not only is there no obligation on the author to conform to other's expectations, perceptions, or advocacies. I would argue that it is impossible for an author to conform.
If my primary concern is that Egypt (or any country or any people) be represented in a good light, then criticizing TDAS for conforming to what might be seen as negative stereotypes ("poverty, child labor, and illiteracy") makes logical sense even if those stereotypes have a real basis. However, if my primary concern is to bring attention to how human lives have things in common (such as the pleasure of achievement, or such as the rite of passage that is learning to read), then TDAS is very supportive of that particular goal. Other advocates, wanting to draw attention to the rich diversity of Egypt might criticize TDAS because it omits mentioning the 10% of Egyptians who are Coptic Christian and their tribulations. Others, more interested in women's rights might wish TDAS to have highlighted the plight of Ahmed's older sister. My point is not to trash Egypt. My point is that not only is there no obligation for an author to write to a specified third-party viewpoint but that it is impossible for an author to anticipate all the agendas and points of advocacies, and that many of those points can all be true and real and legitimate concerns but not compatible with one another.
For a non-specialist it is also confusing. If some informed sources, such as AWAIR, endorse the book and others choose to criticize it, what is the non-specialist to conclude? I am not advocating a non-criticism policy. I am arguing that the basis for the criticism should be clear. I think we are melding two streams of criticism together without distinguishing them. "Is this book a good read likely to be enjoyed and beneficial to many readers" is one basis for criticism. On that basis, TDAS passes muster. It has been in print twenty years, endorsed by AWAIR, children and parents enjoy it, any literary criticism of the writing or of the art has generally been positive.
But that is a different question than "Does this book present an issue in a fashion that I would like it presented". In that case, if you want a book about what it is like to live in Cairo in 2014, perhaps it is too dated or not accurate enough about certain points or doesn't highlight the many Cairenes who are modern professionals. Perhaps you want books by Cairene authors, in which case it fails the test. If you want to highlight the role of religion in Egypt (pertinent to the recent troubles) then again clearly not a useful book. But if you want to emphasize global human commonalities, then perhaps it is a good one against that standard. Which books you select for a particular purpose depends on your objectives and those excluded can't be criticized simply because they were incompatible with that particular objective.
I think it is worth maintaining clearer boundaries between criticism that is focused on informing the reader about the book's literary and artistic qualities, and criticism that is focused on whether a book is supportive of a particular goal. Both are legitimate approaches, they are simply different.
CB
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Received on Wed 20 Aug 2014 12:54:30 PM CDT
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 13:53:28 -0400
Sharat,
You said regarding The Day of Ahmed's Secret (TDAS) that "I'll pass on child labor because I have no knowledge of that issue as it pertains to Egypt. . .
" The numbers for Egypt are:
Illiteracy Rate - 25% for males 35% for females.
Child Labor Rate - 15% of males under age 14 are in the labor force, 4% for females
Poverty Rate - 95% per the American definition of poverty, 25% by the Egyptian definition and 2% by the UN definition (living on less than $1.5 per day). US per capita GDP (per the World Bank) is $53,100 and Egypt's is
$3,300.
I think you are correct that what is being represented is urbanized fellaheen who we might term the working poor.
I think this discussion sheds light on one of the core issues in many of our conversations - differing bases for criticizing a book. Clearly, it is oxymoronic on the face of it to fact-check fiction. It is also unreasonable to expect a 32 page, 1,500 word picture book to address much more than the barest of basics or render anything in more than a superficial fashion. Given that TDAS was an (Arab World and Islamic Resources) AWAIR pick it is hard to see that it is deemed as being materially misrepresentative.
It appears to me that the complaint is not that the book is wrong in any significant way. A work of fiction can't be wrong. It also appears to me that the complaint is not that the book gives a wrong impression
(stereotypes). That particular claim appears fairly weak tea based on the numbers. It appears to me that the criticism comes down to a desire that the book should represent Egypt differently than the author chose to do.
Which is fine but I am not sure how useful it is as a basis for criticism. Everyone has a perspective or an argument they wish to advocate. I think Marc's earlier point that the author has no obligation to anyone other than themselves is entirely true. Da Vinci had no obligation to include the unpleasant rash on Mona Lisa's chin that he elected to omit.
I would go further and argue that not only is there no obligation on the author to conform to other's expectations, perceptions, or advocacies. I would argue that it is impossible for an author to conform.
If my primary concern is that Egypt (or any country or any people) be represented in a good light, then criticizing TDAS for conforming to what might be seen as negative stereotypes ("poverty, child labor, and illiteracy") makes logical sense even if those stereotypes have a real basis. However, if my primary concern is to bring attention to how human lives have things in common (such as the pleasure of achievement, or such as the rite of passage that is learning to read), then TDAS is very supportive of that particular goal. Other advocates, wanting to draw attention to the rich diversity of Egypt might criticize TDAS because it omits mentioning the 10% of Egyptians who are Coptic Christian and their tribulations. Others, more interested in women's rights might wish TDAS to have highlighted the plight of Ahmed's older sister. My point is not to trash Egypt. My point is that not only is there no obligation for an author to write to a specified third-party viewpoint but that it is impossible for an author to anticipate all the agendas and points of advocacies, and that many of those points can all be true and real and legitimate concerns but not compatible with one another.
For a non-specialist it is also confusing. If some informed sources, such as AWAIR, endorse the book and others choose to criticize it, what is the non-specialist to conclude? I am not advocating a non-criticism policy. I am arguing that the basis for the criticism should be clear. I think we are melding two streams of criticism together without distinguishing them. "Is this book a good read likely to be enjoyed and beneficial to many readers" is one basis for criticism. On that basis, TDAS passes muster. It has been in print twenty years, endorsed by AWAIR, children and parents enjoy it, any literary criticism of the writing or of the art has generally been positive.
But that is a different question than "Does this book present an issue in a fashion that I would like it presented". In that case, if you want a book about what it is like to live in Cairo in 2014, perhaps it is too dated or not accurate enough about certain points or doesn't highlight the many Cairenes who are modern professionals. Perhaps you want books by Cairene authors, in which case it fails the test. If you want to highlight the role of religion in Egypt (pertinent to the recent troubles) then again clearly not a useful book. But if you want to emphasize global human commonalities, then perhaps it is a good one against that standard. Which books you select for a particular purpose depends on your objectives and those excluded can't be criticized simply because they were incompatible with that particular objective.
I think it is worth maintaining clearer boundaries between criticism that is focused on informing the reader about the book's literary and artistic qualities, and criticism that is focused on whether a book is supportive of a particular goal. Both are legitimate approaches, they are simply different.
CB
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Received on Wed 20 Aug 2014 12:54:30 PM CDT
