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RE: Re: Muslims and Muslim Cultures-- accuracy
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From: Charles Bayless <charles.bayless_at_gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 22:46:54 -0400
“"The Day of Ahmed's Secret" was published in 1995. Perhaps there are no longer camels in the streets of Cairo today. But just maybe, 20 years ago...?”
Pauline, I believe you are correct.
I lived in Tripoli, Libya in 1969-1970 and there was still a monthly camel market then. Camel traders would bring small herds to town through the suburbs. From other friends who had lived in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, it sounded like camel markets in towns and cities were fairly common in those countries as well, at least at that time. No doubt as cities have grown, such camel markets have become rarer or been moved away from city centers. In addition, in support of the idea that camels used to be more common in cities, there is evidence from autobiographies. I have read a handful of autobiographies of people living in Egypt and in Cairo; mostly in the era between the 1880s and 1940s. So very dated, but camels are present in those accounts.
Rather than speculating as to what the situation is today, I did a quick google search to see if we could get at an answer. It seems likely that Heide, Gilliland and Lewin are vindicated, at least on this particular point.
According to Lonely Planet, “Until 1995 the [camel] market was held in Cairo’s western suburb of Imbaba, but when that land became too precious for camels, one of Cairo’s age-old institutions was relocated.”
So it appears that, at least on this particular issue, perhaps Heide, Gilliland, and Lewin might have been providing a reasonably accurate rendering at the time of their publication.
This news item from a couple of years ago seems to indicate that whether or not camels are a daily sight in the city, they are still part of the general environment; “Egypt acquits 'Camel Battle' defendants” (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/10/2012101018616938632.html)
This seems to indicate that by 2009, there are not many camels in Cairo but they can occasionally still be seen. (http://www.tripadvisor.com.sg/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g294201-i20689259-Cairo_Cairo_Governorate.html)
There is a rather interesting account of the Cairo camel market in its heyday (1987), “In Cairo Market, Camels Are Sold On A Handshake” (http://articles.philly.com/1987-03-22/news/26223696_1_camel-market-cairo-sudanese)
In summary, it appears to me that until we hear differently from someone who actually has lived in Cairo over the past three decades, it seems like camels are still an integral part of the Egyptian rural economy (200,000 bought and sold each year). As recently as 1995, it seems like they were a readily visible presence in Cairo, given that that was where the main camel market was located. Since 1995, the market has moved 35 miles outside the city. It appears that camels are now a relatively rare sight in the city but they can still occasionally be seen. Given that “Ahmed’s Secret” was published in 1995, it seems like it is possible that what was represented was accurate to the period or the very recent past.
Charles
From: Pauline Tso [mailto:paulinetso2_at_gmail.com] Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 12:44 PM To: ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu Subject: Fwd: Re: [ccbc-net] Muslims and Muslim Cultures-- accuracy
I have never been to Cairo, but just to play Devil's Advocate...
I have been to Beijing five times since 2004 and in the space of those ten years, have seen incredible changes at an amazing pace. I don't have statistics to prove it, but I would say that 10 years ago, there were easily twice as many bicycles and a quarter of the number of cars on the streets as there are today. There were three (or four?) subway lines in 2004, now there are seventeen! Yet even today, you can still see the occasional street vendor, complete with horse-drawn cart, selling vegetables and fruit from the curb, and a scattering of traditional hutongs still exist.
"The Day of Ahmed's Secret" was published in 1995. Perhaps there are no longer camels in the streets of Cairo today. But just maybe, 20 years ago...?
- Pauline
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 7:21 AM, Elsa Marston <elsa.marston_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> Since Seemi Aziz has also raised questions about THE DAY OF AHMED'S
> SECRET, I'd like to say something more about accuracy. (I discussed this
> in a long letter in *Bookbird *a few years ago.) For the most part I
> think Ted Lewin did a wonderful job in capturing the essence of street life
> in the old city in Cairo; but there are errors, big ones, that I think are
> worth talking about.
>
> Camels would be most unlikely in downtown Cairo, and as for
> "caravans"--laden with goodness- knows-what and covered with trappings like
> camels that tourists ride at the Pyramids--No, definitely not! Both the
> text and the illustration, though charming to look at, are absolutely
> false. ("But in the city are the caravans of camels and their riders who
> have crossed it [the desert] many times.....} I'm tempted to think it's a
> joke. Anyway, it's false information that has been added, it would seem,
> just for exotic appeal. Muslims, and especially Arabs, are very sensitive
> about these hoary old stereotypes, which seem intended to push them out of
> the modern world and back to some sort of primitive or at best quaintly
> old-fashioned world.
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Received on Fri 15 Aug 2014 09:47:48 PM CDT
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 22:46:54 -0400
“"The Day of Ahmed's Secret" was published in 1995. Perhaps there are no longer camels in the streets of Cairo today. But just maybe, 20 years ago...?”
Pauline, I believe you are correct.
I lived in Tripoli, Libya in 1969-1970 and there was still a monthly camel market then. Camel traders would bring small herds to town through the suburbs. From other friends who had lived in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, it sounded like camel markets in towns and cities were fairly common in those countries as well, at least at that time. No doubt as cities have grown, such camel markets have become rarer or been moved away from city centers. In addition, in support of the idea that camels used to be more common in cities, there is evidence from autobiographies. I have read a handful of autobiographies of people living in Egypt and in Cairo; mostly in the era between the 1880s and 1940s. So very dated, but camels are present in those accounts.
Rather than speculating as to what the situation is today, I did a quick google search to see if we could get at an answer. It seems likely that Heide, Gilliland and Lewin are vindicated, at least on this particular point.
According to Lonely Planet, “Until 1995 the [camel] market was held in Cairo’s western suburb of Imbaba, but when that land became too precious for camels, one of Cairo’s age-old institutions was relocated.”
So it appears that, at least on this particular issue, perhaps Heide, Gilliland, and Lewin might have been providing a reasonably accurate rendering at the time of their publication.
This news item from a couple of years ago seems to indicate that whether or not camels are a daily sight in the city, they are still part of the general environment; “Egypt acquits 'Camel Battle' defendants” (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/10/2012101018616938632.html)
This seems to indicate that by 2009, there are not many camels in Cairo but they can occasionally still be seen. (http://www.tripadvisor.com.sg/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g294201-i20689259-Cairo_Cairo_Governorate.html)
There is a rather interesting account of the Cairo camel market in its heyday (1987), “In Cairo Market, Camels Are Sold On A Handshake” (http://articles.philly.com/1987-03-22/news/26223696_1_camel-market-cairo-sudanese)
In summary, it appears to me that until we hear differently from someone who actually has lived in Cairo over the past three decades, it seems like camels are still an integral part of the Egyptian rural economy (200,000 bought and sold each year). As recently as 1995, it seems like they were a readily visible presence in Cairo, given that that was where the main camel market was located. Since 1995, the market has moved 35 miles outside the city. It appears that camels are now a relatively rare sight in the city but they can still occasionally be seen. Given that “Ahmed’s Secret” was published in 1995, it seems like it is possible that what was represented was accurate to the period or the very recent past.
Charles
From: Pauline Tso [mailto:paulinetso2_at_gmail.com] Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 12:44 PM To: ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu Subject: Fwd: Re: [ccbc-net] Muslims and Muslim Cultures-- accuracy
I have never been to Cairo, but just to play Devil's Advocate...
I have been to Beijing five times since 2004 and in the space of those ten years, have seen incredible changes at an amazing pace. I don't have statistics to prove it, but I would say that 10 years ago, there were easily twice as many bicycles and a quarter of the number of cars on the streets as there are today. There were three (or four?) subway lines in 2004, now there are seventeen! Yet even today, you can still see the occasional street vendor, complete with horse-drawn cart, selling vegetables and fruit from the curb, and a scattering of traditional hutongs still exist.
"The Day of Ahmed's Secret" was published in 1995. Perhaps there are no longer camels in the streets of Cairo today. But just maybe, 20 years ago...?
- Pauline
On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 7:21 AM, Elsa Marston <elsa.marston_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> Since Seemi Aziz has also raised questions about THE DAY OF AHMED'S
> SECRET, I'd like to say something more about accuracy. (I discussed this
> in a long letter in *Bookbird *a few years ago.) For the most part I
> think Ted Lewin did a wonderful job in capturing the essence of street life
> in the old city in Cairo; but there are errors, big ones, that I think are
> worth talking about.
>
> Camels would be most unlikely in downtown Cairo, and as for
> "caravans"--laden with goodness- knows-what and covered with trappings like
> camels that tourists ride at the Pyramids--No, definitely not! Both the
> text and the illustration, though charming to look at, are absolutely
> false. ("But in the city are the caravans of camels and their riders who
> have crossed it [the desert] many times.....} I'm tempted to think it's a
> joke. Anyway, it's false information that has been added, it would seem,
> just for exotic appeal. Muslims, and especially Arabs, are very sensitive
> about these hoary old stereotypes, which seem intended to push them out of
> the modern world and back to some sort of primitive or at best quaintly
> old-fashioned world.
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Received on Fri 15 Aug 2014 09:47:48 PM CDT
