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Re: Muslim and Muslim cultures in books
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From: Seemi Aziz <seemiahmad_at_hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 21:08:08 -0700
Charles while I heartily agree with most of points about interchangeability and the concerns you have voiced about it, as well as clearing the perception of the readers about the most populated Muslim countries not being in the Middle East at all. Your choice of picture book namely The Day of Ahmed's Secret is confusing for me as are the titles by Suzanne Fisher Staples(voiced by another responder). The biggest problem with Ahmad's Secret are the concepts of poverty, child labor, and illiteracy that are typical stereotypes aboutMuslims as is the perception of historicized realities of Muslim present day lived experiences in most books. When does Ahmad learn to write his name during his very busy day?? Why is there a continued perception of 'secrets' and Middle East?? there are concerns about camels deserts and tents as representatives of Muslim cultures in this picture book as well as the Shabanu trilogy by Staples. Staples writes about a 12 year old girl living in a desert who tends camels and lives a nomadic life in a tent. Shabanu is later forced to marry a landlord who is around 60. She is to be his fourth wife who is ill treated by his family and other wives as she is illiterate. How many more Muslim cultural and religious stereotypes does one want to see in a book and one needs to question what percentage of population lives a nomadic life in Pakistan?? The picturebook that is better,written by the same authors and illustrated by Ted Lewin is Sami in the Times of Troubles set in Lebanon. Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 12, 2014, at 10:44 AM, "Charles Bayless" <charles.bayless_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>
> KT,
>
> A great point and one with which I have been wrestling. I have been very uncomfortable with the tendency to try and define people by groups and particularly when the groups are ill-defined as in the case of the terms Islam, Middle East, and Arab and when there is a high degree of heterogeneity within each of those terms. The terms are not synonymous and yet they often seem to be treated as such.
>
> I have lived in an Arab country that was virtually entirely Muslim (Libya) and an African country with a large Black Muslim minority (Nigeria), and had business dealings in countries that were Muslim and/or had large Muslim minorities (Indonesia, Malaysia, India, and France). I have also worked closely for extended periods of time with individuals from Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. Among that mix of individuals were various denominations of eastern Christians (principally Coptic and Maronite), Shi’a, Sunni, Druze, secular and Jewish. I would not characterize any of those people and places as being interchangeable and most would be highly insulted to be mistaken as one for the other. The fact that there is a geographical proximity in some cases or a nominally related religious heritage tells you very little. It is the individual person in a context at a time that is important, not a series of ill defined general attributes. I think it is very, very difficult to talk about either Islam, or Arabs or the Middle East without adding a lot of qualifiers (country, language, religion, education, ethnicity, class, age cohort, etc.). An Oxford educated Pakistani jurist is not a Wahhabist Sunni Muslim, is not a Lebanese Maronite Christian is not a Persian Shi’a is not an Indonesian Muslim.
>
> As an example of this complexity in terms, there are about 2 million people (about 0.6% of the population) living in the US who identify as Middle Eastern in origin. 30% are Christian from various Middle Eastern countries. 25% are Persian (i.e. non-Arab). 25% are Turkic or Kurdish in origin (also non-Arab). 5% are Jewish.
>
> In contrast, of the about 2.5 million Muslim adherents (about 0.8% of the population) living in the US, 34% are Pakistani or Indian, 26% are Arab, 25% are African-American (Nation of Islam), and 15% are Other.
>
> The upshot is that if you meet a Middle Easterner in the US, only a small minority will identify as a Muslim Arab. If you meet a Muslim in the US, the majority will not identify as Arab.
>
> At a global level there is similar heterogeneity. The largest Muslim country in the world is not in the Middle East (Indonesia, 210 million). Indeed, of the five countries in the world with the largest number of adherents to Islam, none of them are in the Middle East (in order they are, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nigeria) and none of them are ethnically Arab. Approximately 80% of the 1.6 billion Muslim population in the world are neither ethnically Arab nor do they live in the Middle East (they are concentrated in Africa or South and Southeast Asia).
>
> I think this complexity is illustrated by the nature of books that have so far been recommended. They are virtually all adult books that may be accessible to a YA (12-18) but are unlikely to be read by YA. There are just too many truths and complexities and details, particularly given the low number of books children read at all, much less about particular topics. My sense is there are a few, but not a lot, of really decent Picture Books. There are even fewer Middle Grade books. There are a lot of adult books that are accessible to YA. I’ll be interested to see what other titles get mentioned in the balance of this conversation.
>
> One approach for younger children, not a single book, is to juxtapose stories from Aesop, 1,001 Arabian Nights, and the Indian Panchatantra folktales. There are a lot of common stories between the three traditions (regardless of the endless debates about which are older and who influenced whom). It is, I think, perhaps illuminating that for all the real differences between cultures and traditions, there are also a lot commonalities and shared influences.
>
> So to your question, are the Middle Eastern countries interchangeable? I would broadly say no (or at least to no greater extent than European countries or Asian countries or South American countries are interchangeable) but that it depends on what the author wishes to convey. An author with a particular story might be able to carry it off but the reality is that all the countries are significantly different by history, by ethnicity, and by religion and sect not to mention education levels, language, economic development levels, etc. Can you tell universal stories with a generic or non-critical setting? Certainly. I heartily endorse The Day of Ahmed’s Secret. However, at its core, it is a universal story of one of childhood’s milestones – learning to read and write. The fact that it is set in Cairo is nice and part of its charm but not critical. It could have as easily been in Baghdad, Tunis, or Damascus.
>
> In terms of specific books that I have not yet seen mentioned, I strongly concur with The Day of Ahmed’s Secret. All my YA designations are actually adult but accessible to 12-18 year olds and most would really be more 15-18. I would add:
>
> Traveling Man: The Journey of Ibn Battuta 1325-1354 by James Rumford (Picture Book)
> Saladin: Noble Prince of Islam by Diane Stanley (Picture Book, part of a series of historical figures)
> Knight Crusader by Ronald Welch (1954 Carnegie Medal, Middle Grade, a lot of action but also a lot of inter-cultural nuance, currently available through Slightly Foxed in the UK)
> Empires of the Monsoon: A History of the Indian Ocean and its Invaders by Richard Hall (Young Adult)
> Suleiman the Magnificent by Anthony Bridge (Young Adult)
> The Adventures of Ibn Battuta by Ross E. Dunn (Young Adult)
> In an Antique Land by Amitav Ghosh (Young Adult, contemporary travel, history, mystery – all nonfiction. A very engaging account of living among the Egyptian fellaheen in the 1980s and 1990s)
> Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T.E. Lawrence (Young Adult)
> From the Holy Mountain: A Journey in the Shadow of Byzantium by William Dalrymple (Young Adult, travel and history in the Middle East)
> The Last Mughal by William Dalrymple (Young Adult, Islamic history in the subcontinent)
> The Caliph’s House by Taliph Shah (Young Adult, living in modern day Morocco)
> The Prophet by Khalil Gibran (Young Adult; included because of its popularity – a good New Yorker article from a few years ago http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/01/07/prophet-motive)
> Arabian Sands by Wilfred Thesiger (YA, particularly any edition illustrated with his photography)
> The Marsh Arabs by Wilfred Thesiger (YA, particularly any edition illustrated with his photography)
> Younghusband: The Last Great Imperial Adventurer by Patrick French (YA, history which includes Islam in Central Asia)
> Garden of the Brave in War by Terence O’Donnell (YA, living in rural Iran in the 1960s and 1970s)
> Flashman by George MacDonald Fraser (YA, history of the First Anglo-Afghan War, 1839-1842)
> Flashman and the Great Game by George MacDonald Fraser (YA)
> Flashman and the Mountain of Light by George MacDonald Fraser (YA, First Sikh War, 1845-46)
> The Alexandria Quartet by Lawrence Durrell (YA, notable as a literary accomplishment but in terms of this discussion the setting in cosmopolitan Alexandria, Egypt captures a lot of the overlooked nuance and complexity which is lost were we to simply categorize Egypt as a Muslim Arab country)
>
>
> Charles
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Received on Tue 12 Aug 2014 11:08:48 PM CDT
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 21:08:08 -0700
Charles while I heartily agree with most of points about interchangeability and the concerns you have voiced about it, as well as clearing the perception of the readers about the most populated Muslim countries not being in the Middle East at all. Your choice of picture book namely The Day of Ahmed's Secret is confusing for me as are the titles by Suzanne Fisher Staples(voiced by another responder). The biggest problem with Ahmad's Secret are the concepts of poverty, child labor, and illiteracy that are typical stereotypes aboutMuslims as is the perception of historicized realities of Muslim present day lived experiences in most books. When does Ahmad learn to write his name during his very busy day?? Why is there a continued perception of 'secrets' and Middle East?? there are concerns about camels deserts and tents as representatives of Muslim cultures in this picture book as well as the Shabanu trilogy by Staples. Staples writes about a 12 year old girl living in a desert who tends camels and lives a nomadic life in a tent. Shabanu is later forced to marry a landlord who is around 60. She is to be his fourth wife who is ill treated by his family and other wives as she is illiterate. How many more Muslim cultural and religious stereotypes does one want to see in a book and one needs to question what percentage of population lives a nomadic life in Pakistan?? The picturebook that is better,written by the same authors and illustrated by Ted Lewin is Sami in the Times of Troubles set in Lebanon. Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 12, 2014, at 10:44 AM, "Charles Bayless" <charles.bayless_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>
> KT,
>
> A great point and one with which I have been wrestling. I have been very uncomfortable with the tendency to try and define people by groups and particularly when the groups are ill-defined as in the case of the terms Islam, Middle East, and Arab and when there is a high degree of heterogeneity within each of those terms. The terms are not synonymous and yet they often seem to be treated as such.
>
> I have lived in an Arab country that was virtually entirely Muslim (Libya) and an African country with a large Black Muslim minority (Nigeria), and had business dealings in countries that were Muslim and/or had large Muslim minorities (Indonesia, Malaysia, India, and France). I have also worked closely for extended periods of time with individuals from Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. Among that mix of individuals were various denominations of eastern Christians (principally Coptic and Maronite), Shi’a, Sunni, Druze, secular and Jewish. I would not characterize any of those people and places as being interchangeable and most would be highly insulted to be mistaken as one for the other. The fact that there is a geographical proximity in some cases or a nominally related religious heritage tells you very little. It is the individual person in a context at a time that is important, not a series of ill defined general attributes. I think it is very, very difficult to talk about either Islam, or Arabs or the Middle East without adding a lot of qualifiers (country, language, religion, education, ethnicity, class, age cohort, etc.). An Oxford educated Pakistani jurist is not a Wahhabist Sunni Muslim, is not a Lebanese Maronite Christian is not a Persian Shi’a is not an Indonesian Muslim.
>
> As an example of this complexity in terms, there are about 2 million people (about 0.6% of the population) living in the US who identify as Middle Eastern in origin. 30% are Christian from various Middle Eastern countries. 25% are Persian (i.e. non-Arab). 25% are Turkic or Kurdish in origin (also non-Arab). 5% are Jewish.
>
> In contrast, of the about 2.5 million Muslim adherents (about 0.8% of the population) living in the US, 34% are Pakistani or Indian, 26% are Arab, 25% are African-American (Nation of Islam), and 15% are Other.
>
> The upshot is that if you meet a Middle Easterner in the US, only a small minority will identify as a Muslim Arab. If you meet a Muslim in the US, the majority will not identify as Arab.
>
> At a global level there is similar heterogeneity. The largest Muslim country in the world is not in the Middle East (Indonesia, 210 million). Indeed, of the five countries in the world with the largest number of adherents to Islam, none of them are in the Middle East (in order they are, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nigeria) and none of them are ethnically Arab. Approximately 80% of the 1.6 billion Muslim population in the world are neither ethnically Arab nor do they live in the Middle East (they are concentrated in Africa or South and Southeast Asia).
>
> I think this complexity is illustrated by the nature of books that have so far been recommended. They are virtually all adult books that may be accessible to a YA (12-18) but are unlikely to be read by YA. There are just too many truths and complexities and details, particularly given the low number of books children read at all, much less about particular topics. My sense is there are a few, but not a lot, of really decent Picture Books. There are even fewer Middle Grade books. There are a lot of adult books that are accessible to YA. I’ll be interested to see what other titles get mentioned in the balance of this conversation.
>
> One approach for younger children, not a single book, is to juxtapose stories from Aesop, 1,001 Arabian Nights, and the Indian Panchatantra folktales. There are a lot of common stories between the three traditions (regardless of the endless debates about which are older and who influenced whom). It is, I think, perhaps illuminating that for all the real differences between cultures and traditions, there are also a lot commonalities and shared influences.
>
> So to your question, are the Middle Eastern countries interchangeable? I would broadly say no (or at least to no greater extent than European countries or Asian countries or South American countries are interchangeable) but that it depends on what the author wishes to convey. An author with a particular story might be able to carry it off but the reality is that all the countries are significantly different by history, by ethnicity, and by religion and sect not to mention education levels, language, economic development levels, etc. Can you tell universal stories with a generic or non-critical setting? Certainly. I heartily endorse The Day of Ahmed’s Secret. However, at its core, it is a universal story of one of childhood’s milestones – learning to read and write. The fact that it is set in Cairo is nice and part of its charm but not critical. It could have as easily been in Baghdad, Tunis, or Damascus.
>
> In terms of specific books that I have not yet seen mentioned, I strongly concur with The Day of Ahmed’s Secret. All my YA designations are actually adult but accessible to 12-18 year olds and most would really be more 15-18. I would add:
>
> Traveling Man: The Journey of Ibn Battuta 1325-1354 by James Rumford (Picture Book)
> Saladin: Noble Prince of Islam by Diane Stanley (Picture Book, part of a series of historical figures)
> Knight Crusader by Ronald Welch (1954 Carnegie Medal, Middle Grade, a lot of action but also a lot of inter-cultural nuance, currently available through Slightly Foxed in the UK)
> Empires of the Monsoon: A History of the Indian Ocean and its Invaders by Richard Hall (Young Adult)
> Suleiman the Magnificent by Anthony Bridge (Young Adult)
> The Adventures of Ibn Battuta by Ross E. Dunn (Young Adult)
> In an Antique Land by Amitav Ghosh (Young Adult, contemporary travel, history, mystery – all nonfiction. A very engaging account of living among the Egyptian fellaheen in the 1980s and 1990s)
> Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T.E. Lawrence (Young Adult)
> From the Holy Mountain: A Journey in the Shadow of Byzantium by William Dalrymple (Young Adult, travel and history in the Middle East)
> The Last Mughal by William Dalrymple (Young Adult, Islamic history in the subcontinent)
> The Caliph’s House by Taliph Shah (Young Adult, living in modern day Morocco)
> The Prophet by Khalil Gibran (Young Adult; included because of its popularity – a good New Yorker article from a few years ago http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/01/07/prophet-motive)
> Arabian Sands by Wilfred Thesiger (YA, particularly any edition illustrated with his photography)
> The Marsh Arabs by Wilfred Thesiger (YA, particularly any edition illustrated with his photography)
> Younghusband: The Last Great Imperial Adventurer by Patrick French (YA, history which includes Islam in Central Asia)
> Garden of the Brave in War by Terence O’Donnell (YA, living in rural Iran in the 1960s and 1970s)
> Flashman by George MacDonald Fraser (YA, history of the First Anglo-Afghan War, 1839-1842)
> Flashman and the Great Game by George MacDonald Fraser (YA)
> Flashman and the Mountain of Light by George MacDonald Fraser (YA, First Sikh War, 1845-46)
> The Alexandria Quartet by Lawrence Durrell (YA, notable as a literary accomplishment but in terms of this discussion the setting in cosmopolitan Alexandria, Egypt captures a lot of the overlooked nuance and complexity which is lost were we to simply categorize Egypt as a Muslim Arab country)
>
>
> Charles
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Received on Tue 12 Aug 2014 11:08:48 PM CDT
