CCBC-Net Archives
RE: The barriers to writing quality NF
- Contemporary messages sorted: [ by date ] [ by subject ] [ by author ]
From: Gardow, Pamela <pgardow_at_ecasd.k12.wi.us>
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2014 12:19:11 -0500
I totally agree, and we have many of your wonderful books in our high school collection. Pam
Pamela A. Gardow, Librarian Memorial High School Teen Literacy Initiative Authors in the Schools Chippewa Valley Book Festival 2225 Keith St. Eau Claire, WI 54701 715-852-6309
From: tanyastone_at_tanyastone.com [mailto:tanyastone_at_tanyastone.com] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 12:14 PM To: Gardow, Pamela; 'sully_at_sully-writer.com'; Heather Montgomery; ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu; Elsa Marston Subject: RE: [ccbc-net] The barriers to writing quality NF
This is an interesting conversation! I can only speak for myself, of course, but my primary motivating factor is passion for a topic, as opposed to fitting common core standards or any other pedagogical objective, trend, or goal to fill a niche. Having said that, I do tend to write about women and other people who have been marginalized and left out of mainstream history for whatever reasons. I do find the kind of narrative nonfiction I write, as well as nonfiction written by several of my colleagues, to certainly be challenging enough for teens--and even adults. There are layers of complexities in many of these books that can be accessed in different way by different readers.
All best, Tanya
[cid:image001.gif_at_01CF8181.85F935E0]<http://www.tanyastone.com>
www.tanyastone.com<http://www.tanyastone.com>
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: [ccbc-net] The barriers to writing quality NF From: "Gardow, Pamela" <pgardow_at_ecasd.k12.wi.us<mailto:pgardow@ecasd.k12.wi.us>> Date: Fri, June 06, 2014 12:49 pm To: "'sully_at_sully-writer.com<mailto:sully_at_sully-writer.com>'" <sully@sully-writer.com<mailto:sully@sully-writer.com>>, Heather Montgomery <sipsey21_at_hotmail.com<mailto:sipsey21_at_hotmail.com>>, "ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>"
<ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu>> That really helps explain one of my criticisms of YA nonfiction for high school students. So many of the nonfiction books seem targeted to middle school and younger teens, that I have a hard time finding enough YA nonfiction with the kind of complexity of ideas and language that fit common core standards. I continue to look for and purchase great YA nonfiction, but look more and more for adult biographies and nonfiction to meet the push for increased “rigor.”
Pam
Pamela A. Gardow, Librarian Memorial High School Teen Literacy Initiative Authors in the Schools Chippewa Valley Book Festival 2225 Keith St. Eau Claire, WI 54701 715-852-6309
From: sully_at_sully-writer.com<mailto:sully_at_sully-writer.com> [mailto:sully@sully-writer.com] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 9:59 AM To: Heather Montgomery; ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu> Subject: RE: [ccbc-net] The barriers to writing quality NF
Heather,
Speaking as someone who has spent the last several months trying to find a publisher for my own YA nonfiction manuscript, I appreciate your frustration. I've been trying to find someone to take on a story I have about the Rape of Nanking. It focuses on a German businessman and an American missionary whose efforts helped save the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. I wrote it with an YA audience in mind and, given the horrific subject matter, it limits the audience to 14 and up. It's that limitation that's turning away potential publishers.
Here's a quote from the most recent rejection I received: "Nonfiction specifically for older 'young readers' is extremely tough to publish, as the audience is so narrow. When the content of a nonfiction book makes it for 14+ readers, a lot of high school students, especially those 16+, will read adult books about the topic if they’re interested in it. And unlike in the case of YA fiction, which has a wide adult readership, adults, we have found, generally do not read 'down' in nonfiction."
The editor suggests I look into adult imprints and I'm thinking he's probably right. It appears that market realities dictate that a YA nonfiction book for ages 14 and up is not economically viable. Now I have to figure out what I need to do to make my story "suitable" for an adult audience!
Edward T. Sullivan, Rogue Librarian http://www.sully-writer.com<http://www.sully-writer.com/> http://sullywriter.wordpress.com<http://sullywriter.wordpress.com/>
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [ccbc-net] The barriers to writing quality NF From: Heather Montgomery <sipsey21_at_hotmail.com<mailto:sipsey21@hotmail.com>> Date: Fri, June 06, 2014 10:34 am To: "ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu>" <ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>> I feel that we are lacking in-depth, quality NF for middle grade and YA. Yes there are some good books available for those audiences, but the quantity and diversity is limited (for example, where are the great snake books for the eighth grade reader?). As was mentioned earlier on this list, we need "gateway" books to adult nonfiction.
This discussion has brought up many of the reasons for this (format, mothers as gatekeepers of "real" books, male versus female authors, etc.) with which I agree.
Kelly brought up a good point about resistance from editors. I've, too, have experienced their aversion to topics boys and girls of this age have requested of me. One of the barriers is that in order to produce such books with passion/enthusiasm (good point Megan) you must also have an editor who is passionate about the book. Most editors are not attracted to these topics and don't see their potential or think they will only sell to the picture book market or photo-driven format.
Lee's comment about the economic realities for authors points to a huge barrier. A nonfiction author can opt to write for the educational market, which can mean a more steady yet very modest income. But in the educational market, the passion/creativity/time/financial support required to write a stellar book is rare. As Kelly indicated, to write those fabulous books takes years of research and writing. When writing for the trade market, an author makes a gamble on their investment of time and energy. From my perspective, this may be one of the great limiting factors.
Heather
Heather L. Montgomery www.HeatherLMontgomery.com<http://www.heatherlmontgomery.com/> Nature Books for Kids 256-426-5871
Wild Discoveries: Wacky New Animals (Scholastic, 2013)
==== CCBC-Net Use ==== You are currently subscribed to ccbc-net as: sully_at_sully-writer.com<mailto:sully_at_sully-writer.com>.
To post to the list, send message to...
ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu>
To receive messages in digest format, send a blank message to...
digest-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:digest-ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>
To unsubscribe, send a blank message to...
leave-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:leave-ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>
==== CCBC-Net Archives ==== The CCBC-Net archives are available to all CCBC-Net listserv members. The archives are organized by month and year. A list of discussion topics (including month/year) is available at...
http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/ccbcnet/archives.asp
To access the archives, go to...
http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/ccbc-net
...and enter the following when prompted...
username: ccbc-net
password: Look4Posts
==== CCBC-Net Use ==== You are currently subscribed to ccbc-net as: pgardow_at_ecasd.k12.wi.us<mailto:pgardow@ecasd.k12.wi.us>.
To post to the list, send message to...
ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu>
To receive messages in digest format, send a blank message to...
digest-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:digest-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu>
To unsubscribe, send a blank message to...
leave-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:leave-ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>
==== CCBC-Net Archives ==== The CCBC-Net archives are available to all CCBC-Net listserv members. The archives are organized by month and year. A list of discussion topics (including month/year) is available at...
http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/ccbcnet/archives.asp
To access the archives, go to...
http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/ccbc-net
...and enter the following when prompted...
username: ccbc-net
password: Look4Posts
****************************************************************************** This email was scanned for viruses at the gateway of the Eau Claire Area School District (ECASD). ECASD is in no way responsible for the content of this email or possible damage to your computer or network as a result of opening it or any attachments associated with it. (PM2)
==== CCBC-Net Use ==== You are currently subscribed to ccbc-net as: tanyastone_at_tanyastone.com<mailto:tanyastone@tanyastone.com>.
To post to the list, send message to...
ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu>
To receive messages in digest format, send a blank message to...
digest-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:digest-ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>
To unsubscribe, send a blank message to...
leave-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:leave-ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>
==== CCBC-Net Archives ==== The CCBC-Net archives are available to all CCBC-Net listserv members. The archives are organized by month and year. A list of discussion topics (including month/year) is available at...
http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/ccbcnet/archives.asp
To access the archives, go to...
http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/ccbc-net
...and enter the following when prompted...
username: ccbc-net
password: Look4Posts
****************************************************************************** This email was scanned for viruses at the gateway of the Eau Claire Area School District (ECASD). ECASD is in no way responsible for the content of this email or possible damage to your computer or network as a result of opening it or any attachments associated with it. (PM2)
==== CCBC-Net Use ==== You are currently subscribed to ccbc-net as: ccbc-archive_at_post.education.wisc.edu.
To post to the list, send message to...
ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu
To receive messages in digest format, send a blank message to...
digest-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu
To unsubscribe, send a blank message to...
leave-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu
==== CCBC-Net Archives ==== The CCBC-Net archives are available to all CCBC-Net listserv members. The archives are organized by month and year. A list of discussion topics (including month/year) is available at...
http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/ccbcnet/archives.asp
To access the archives, go to...
http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/ccbc-net
...and enter the following when prompted...
username: ccbc-net
password: Look4Posts
Received on Fri 06 Jun 2014 12:19:30 PM CDT
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2014 12:19:11 -0500
I totally agree, and we have many of your wonderful books in our high school collection. Pam
Pamela A. Gardow, Librarian Memorial High School Teen Literacy Initiative Authors in the Schools Chippewa Valley Book Festival 2225 Keith St. Eau Claire, WI 54701 715-852-6309
From: tanyastone_at_tanyastone.com [mailto:tanyastone_at_tanyastone.com] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 12:14 PM To: Gardow, Pamela; 'sully_at_sully-writer.com'; Heather Montgomery; ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu; Elsa Marston Subject: RE: [ccbc-net] The barriers to writing quality NF
This is an interesting conversation! I can only speak for myself, of course, but my primary motivating factor is passion for a topic, as opposed to fitting common core standards or any other pedagogical objective, trend, or goal to fill a niche. Having said that, I do tend to write about women and other people who have been marginalized and left out of mainstream history for whatever reasons. I do find the kind of narrative nonfiction I write, as well as nonfiction written by several of my colleagues, to certainly be challenging enough for teens--and even adults. There are layers of complexities in many of these books that can be accessed in different way by different readers.
All best, Tanya
[cid:image001.gif_at_01CF8181.85F935E0]<http://www.tanyastone.com>
www.tanyastone.com<http://www.tanyastone.com>
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: [ccbc-net] The barriers to writing quality NF From: "Gardow, Pamela" <pgardow_at_ecasd.k12.wi.us<mailto:pgardow@ecasd.k12.wi.us>> Date: Fri, June 06, 2014 12:49 pm To: "'sully_at_sully-writer.com<mailto:sully_at_sully-writer.com>'" <sully@sully-writer.com<mailto:sully@sully-writer.com>>, Heather Montgomery <sipsey21_at_hotmail.com<mailto:sipsey21_at_hotmail.com>>, "ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>"
<ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu>> That really helps explain one of my criticisms of YA nonfiction for high school students. So many of the nonfiction books seem targeted to middle school and younger teens, that I have a hard time finding enough YA nonfiction with the kind of complexity of ideas and language that fit common core standards. I continue to look for and purchase great YA nonfiction, but look more and more for adult biographies and nonfiction to meet the push for increased “rigor.”
Pam
Pamela A. Gardow, Librarian Memorial High School Teen Literacy Initiative Authors in the Schools Chippewa Valley Book Festival 2225 Keith St. Eau Claire, WI 54701 715-852-6309
From: sully_at_sully-writer.com<mailto:sully_at_sully-writer.com> [mailto:sully@sully-writer.com] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 9:59 AM To: Heather Montgomery; ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu> Subject: RE: [ccbc-net] The barriers to writing quality NF
Heather,
Speaking as someone who has spent the last several months trying to find a publisher for my own YA nonfiction manuscript, I appreciate your frustration. I've been trying to find someone to take on a story I have about the Rape of Nanking. It focuses on a German businessman and an American missionary whose efforts helped save the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. I wrote it with an YA audience in mind and, given the horrific subject matter, it limits the audience to 14 and up. It's that limitation that's turning away potential publishers.
Here's a quote from the most recent rejection I received: "Nonfiction specifically for older 'young readers' is extremely tough to publish, as the audience is so narrow. When the content of a nonfiction book makes it for 14+ readers, a lot of high school students, especially those 16+, will read adult books about the topic if they’re interested in it. And unlike in the case of YA fiction, which has a wide adult readership, adults, we have found, generally do not read 'down' in nonfiction."
The editor suggests I look into adult imprints and I'm thinking he's probably right. It appears that market realities dictate that a YA nonfiction book for ages 14 and up is not economically viable. Now I have to figure out what I need to do to make my story "suitable" for an adult audience!
Edward T. Sullivan, Rogue Librarian http://www.sully-writer.com<http://www.sully-writer.com/> http://sullywriter.wordpress.com<http://sullywriter.wordpress.com/>
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [ccbc-net] The barriers to writing quality NF From: Heather Montgomery <sipsey21_at_hotmail.com<mailto:sipsey21@hotmail.com>> Date: Fri, June 06, 2014 10:34 am To: "ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu>" <ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>> I feel that we are lacking in-depth, quality NF for middle grade and YA. Yes there are some good books available for those audiences, but the quantity and diversity is limited (for example, where are the great snake books for the eighth grade reader?). As was mentioned earlier on this list, we need "gateway" books to adult nonfiction.
This discussion has brought up many of the reasons for this (format, mothers as gatekeepers of "real" books, male versus female authors, etc.) with which I agree.
Kelly brought up a good point about resistance from editors. I've, too, have experienced their aversion to topics boys and girls of this age have requested of me. One of the barriers is that in order to produce such books with passion/enthusiasm (good point Megan) you must also have an editor who is passionate about the book. Most editors are not attracted to these topics and don't see their potential or think they will only sell to the picture book market or photo-driven format.
Lee's comment about the economic realities for authors points to a huge barrier. A nonfiction author can opt to write for the educational market, which can mean a more steady yet very modest income. But in the educational market, the passion/creativity/time/financial support required to write a stellar book is rare. As Kelly indicated, to write those fabulous books takes years of research and writing. When writing for the trade market, an author makes a gamble on their investment of time and energy. From my perspective, this may be one of the great limiting factors.
Heather
Heather L. Montgomery www.HeatherLMontgomery.com<http://www.heatherlmontgomery.com/> Nature Books for Kids 256-426-5871
Wild Discoveries: Wacky New Animals (Scholastic, 2013)
==== CCBC-Net Use ==== You are currently subscribed to ccbc-net as: sully_at_sully-writer.com<mailto:sully_at_sully-writer.com>.
To post to the list, send message to...
ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu>
To receive messages in digest format, send a blank message to...
digest-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:digest-ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>
To unsubscribe, send a blank message to...
leave-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:leave-ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>
==== CCBC-Net Archives ==== The CCBC-Net archives are available to all CCBC-Net listserv members. The archives are organized by month and year. A list of discussion topics (including month/year) is available at...
http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/ccbcnet/archives.asp
To access the archives, go to...
http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/ccbc-net
...and enter the following when prompted...
username: ccbc-net
password: Look4Posts
==== CCBC-Net Use ==== You are currently subscribed to ccbc-net as: pgardow_at_ecasd.k12.wi.us<mailto:pgardow@ecasd.k12.wi.us>.
To post to the list, send message to...
ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu>
To receive messages in digest format, send a blank message to...
digest-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:digest-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu>
To unsubscribe, send a blank message to...
leave-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:leave-ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>
==== CCBC-Net Archives ==== The CCBC-Net archives are available to all CCBC-Net listserv members. The archives are organized by month and year. A list of discussion topics (including month/year) is available at...
http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/ccbcnet/archives.asp
To access the archives, go to...
http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/ccbc-net
...and enter the following when prompted...
username: ccbc-net
password: Look4Posts
****************************************************************************** This email was scanned for viruses at the gateway of the Eau Claire Area School District (ECASD). ECASD is in no way responsible for the content of this email or possible damage to your computer or network as a result of opening it or any attachments associated with it. (PM2)
==== CCBC-Net Use ==== You are currently subscribed to ccbc-net as: tanyastone_at_tanyastone.com<mailto:tanyastone@tanyastone.com>.
To post to the list, send message to...
ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu>
To receive messages in digest format, send a blank message to...
digest-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:digest-ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>
To unsubscribe, send a blank message to...
leave-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu<mailto:leave-ccbc-net@lists.wisc.edu>
==== CCBC-Net Archives ==== The CCBC-Net archives are available to all CCBC-Net listserv members. The archives are organized by month and year. A list of discussion topics (including month/year) is available at...
http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/ccbcnet/archives.asp
To access the archives, go to...
http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/ccbc-net
...and enter the following when prompted...
username: ccbc-net
password: Look4Posts
****************************************************************************** This email was scanned for viruses at the gateway of the Eau Claire Area School District (ECASD). ECASD is in no way responsible for the content of this email or possible damage to your computer or network as a result of opening it or any attachments associated with it. (PM2)
==== CCBC-Net Use ==== You are currently subscribed to ccbc-net as: ccbc-archive_at_post.education.wisc.edu.
To post to the list, send message to...
ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu
To receive messages in digest format, send a blank message to...
digest-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu
To unsubscribe, send a blank message to...
leave-ccbc-net_at_lists.wisc.edu
==== CCBC-Net Archives ==== The CCBC-Net archives are available to all CCBC-Net listserv members. The archives are organized by month and year. A list of discussion topics (including month/year) is available at...
http://www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/ccbcnet/archives.asp
To access the archives, go to...
http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/ccbc-net
...and enter the following when prompted...
username: ccbc-net
password: Look4Posts
(image/gif attachment: 01-part)
