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Re: next round of research and numbers
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From: Norma Jean Sawicki <nsawicki_at_nyc.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:45:30 -0500
As is often the case, Marc makes many good points…and yes, Marc, a white Jewish fellow, did start Edge, a terrific multicultural imprint when it was at Holt...
There is an expression about history…if we do not know where we have been, we cannot know where we are going. Soooooooo…..here is a mini-history of sales of children's books…when I came into publishing in the late sixties, hardcover children's books were sold mostly to school and public libraries…easily 85%. Sales were driven by reviews in various library publications....School Library Journal, Booklist, Kirkus, The Horn Book ,The Bulletin of the Center for Children's Books…Some publications had more sales clout than others…in the tracking I did, School Library Journal had the most impact, partly because they reviewed almost every book published, and too, because their reviewers were/are for the most part, working librarians. If a book received negative reviews in these various publications, a publisher could not give the entire printing away…Some library systems could not order a book unless it had three good reviews. Large school and public library systems…those with book budgets that enabled the library system to buy 10 copies of every book they wanted ( those were the days)!!!…wanted free copies so they could read the book themselves. Book were assigned to librarians who would read and write a report…every month there was a book review meeting in the library system where the review by the librarian was contrasted with published reviews. A list of recommended/not recommended books was distributed to all of the branches in that particular library system. Between these library systems, as well as reviewers, and opinion makers, and committee members, publishers generally gave away 750-1,000 free copies of every book it published.It took time for books to be reviewed in the various library journals as well as in library systems so second year sales were generally higher than first year sales…basically, there was little sales movement until all, or most of the reviews were in.
Children's book departments employed a director of school and library promotion…a department whose job was to keep in close touch with librarians. In addition to the prestige from the N/C awards, most library systems had N/C collections which included the honor books…even if a library had decided to pass on ordering a book, if a book was so honored, it was then ordered to be part of the collection.
To say children's librarians were powerful would be an understatement….most…the vast majority, used that power well, others did not…the horror stories are endless. Speaking for myself, I did not rest easy until I saw the review from School Library Journal…and then, there was the call to the writer…sometimes joyous…sometimes ever so hard/painful….
Many children's book publishers/librarians became good friends…good, wonderful friendships which continue to this day. Still , it was hard being a publisher and knowing it was a review driven business, and if the reviews were negative, one could not do a damn thing to sell that particular book.
In the 80s, with the surge in children's book stores…the chains…Barnes and Noble, etc…expanded their children's sections. Newspapers that rarely gave children's books any coverage published articles about children's books which came out of the closet…and into public view. More than any other book, Harry Potter caused the general public to snap to attention and pay attention to children's books…As stated earlier, the vast majority of the sales came from adults…adults as readers of children's books/YA books…. a sensibility that continues to this day. For years publishers believed that in addition to shelving YA books in a YA section, they should also be shelved in the adult section in bookstores…in libraries….
With the retail market in the 80s, children's book publishers began using marketing techniques that were applied to adult books…techniques designed to sell books to the general public…books that sometimes received mediocre or crummy reviews in the institutional publications sold well, or, very well to the general public. Certain books that sold well in the institutional market sold even better with the push in the retail market. With the shift to a broader market, came a downside…pre-80s, when children's books were sold mostly to school and public libraries, children's book publishers did not deal with unsold books that were returned…the institutional market was regarded as a "slow dollar" and a "clean " business… The profit came from a strong backlist…books that stayed in print and sold year after year…a "clean" business meaning few returns.
Many terrific writers and illustrators have seen a dramatic increase in sales because of a strong presence in the retail market as well as the institutional market. Others…have suffered. Many books do not stay in print over the long haul…many do, that's for sure but it is harder these days…In a conversation I had in the eighties with the late Marilyn Marlow…an agent for children's books beloved by many in the children's' book community, she said she was ambivalent about the shift in market…she represented many writers and illustrators whose books were suddenly selling more than they ever had and were able to earn " a good or terrific living", and she also represented writers and illustrators who were "suffering" because of the shift.
From the chair in which I sit..most mainstream publishers acquire books they know are for the institutional market, others are for the retail market. and still others are for both. And yes, if a publisher believes a children's book is a potential bestseller, there is a big push…
As to writers and illustrators "of color"…many terrific African American writers and illustrators have a strong presence in the retail market as well as the institutional market….Historically, there was a concentrated effort, beginning in the sixties, to discover gifted African American writers and illustrators which continues to this day.
I have said many times on this list that a publisher can publish only what it has an opportunity to publish. Sometimes, the demand for a certain kind of book comes long before writers are writing that kind of book. In this recent discussion, the demand for books by and about Native Americans, has been loud and clear…a mindset led by Debbie... ….the same is true of more books by and about Black American… strong voices from two/three people... voices for books about Arabs, Muslims, Latinos and other groups have been weak….How that "translates" into the world at large is anyone's guess…
What has been utterly depressing, and disheartening, is…. in my mind, I sometimes read a post by a person of color about mainstream publishers and translated it into…what if that that post had been written, word for word, by a white person and was directed at a publisher of color….those posts would have generated outspoken and silent rage…..It is hard, very hard…for a writer and/or illustrator to publish a book that has slow, or lousy sales….it is a fate not confined to people of color and in my bones, has little, if nothing to do with color….Norma Jean
.
On Feb 28, 2014, at 11:34 AM, bookmarch_at_aol.com wrote:
> As the passionate discussions prompted by the CCBC diversity in publishing numbers come to an end, I went back to KT's original post with the link to the current numbers. Looking at those stats, the PW sales numbers Norma Jean sent, and comments along the way, I suggest the following for the next time CCBC posts numbers:
>
> 1) breakdown by genre. That is, of the 3200 books they received, how many were for which age group (as defined by publisher); fiction versus (non-Dewey) nonfiction; series versus individual author; popular culture tie-in (as linked to current film, TV, etc even if focus of the book is some educational goal) v stand-alone.
>
> 2) cross-correlate diversity numbers to genre. That is, are we seeing non-dominant authors cluster in -- or absent from -- certain kinds of books?
>
> 3) cross-correlate genre to retail sales and -- if broadly available from wholesalers -- institutional sales.
>
> 4) add the category of gender what % of books are by men, women, in which categories?
>
> Several commentators have pointed to a gap between population diversity and publishing. The point of further refinement is to examine more closely where are the gaps? In which subjects? In as much as we can tell, how do current trends in what is published match up with what people vote to buy by spending money?
>
> There is an obvious need to bring family income into the picture. That is, America is becoming more diverse, yes. Are American book buyers? This cuts two ways -- how much disposable income do various kinds of Americans have available to use on buying books? And, how do Americans of various backgrounds and economic strata view their $ devoted to children's entertainment/education -- that is, books, vs. apps, games, movies, sports events, theme parks? B/c for example a family that has little extra money but spends that on, say, digital gaming, is most probably not buying based on either cultural authenticity or self-representation but on links to existing popular culture interests.
>
> We may say that popular culture has great limitations, its does. But that gets to a crucial point: I suspect that part of what the CCBC and PW numbers show is the simple fact that overwhelmingly book publishers need to focus on retail sales to make their margins, while the concerns of the CCBC-net community are often those of the institutional market: not, what will an individual buy but, rather, what do we as educators believe should be available -- often for free to the reader -- in school and public libraries? Of course publishers do care about the institutional market broadly, and the reviews and awards that come from ALA and other organizations oriented towards institutions. But the back-list, slow, review-driven sales to libraries can only make up so much of a publisher's list. In turn, of course there is a retail market for books by/about under-represented groups -- and it would be very useful to find an analysis of its buying patterns. Might a marketing person who worked at, say, Jump at the Sun, or Amistad, or Lee and Low be able to share any non-confidential information about, say, what drives sales -- author, illustrator, subject, genre; what are reasonable ranges of expected front-list (first season); 2-year, backlist sales?
>
> And, finally, as I have brought up many times, how does the extreme gender gap in the community of K-12 authors, editors, publishers, reviewers, librarians, teachers figure into who writes books? Which books are published?
>
> In other words, next time, can we begin from more refined numbers so that we can ask targeted questions, and map out the distinct areas of concern that are retail and institutional; mass market and trade; fiction and nonfiction.
>
> Marc Aronson
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Received on Mon 03 Mar 2014 08:45:30 AM CST
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2014 09:45:30 -0500
As is often the case, Marc makes many good points…and yes, Marc, a white Jewish fellow, did start Edge, a terrific multicultural imprint when it was at Holt...
There is an expression about history…if we do not know where we have been, we cannot know where we are going. Soooooooo…..here is a mini-history of sales of children's books…when I came into publishing in the late sixties, hardcover children's books were sold mostly to school and public libraries…easily 85%. Sales were driven by reviews in various library publications....School Library Journal, Booklist, Kirkus, The Horn Book ,The Bulletin of the Center for Children's Books…Some publications had more sales clout than others…in the tracking I did, School Library Journal had the most impact, partly because they reviewed almost every book published, and too, because their reviewers were/are for the most part, working librarians. If a book received negative reviews in these various publications, a publisher could not give the entire printing away…Some library systems could not order a book unless it had three good reviews. Large school and public library systems…those with book budgets that enabled the library system to buy 10 copies of every book they wanted ( those were the days)!!!…wanted free copies so they could read the book themselves. Book were assigned to librarians who would read and write a report…every month there was a book review meeting in the library system where the review by the librarian was contrasted with published reviews. A list of recommended/not recommended books was distributed to all of the branches in that particular library system. Between these library systems, as well as reviewers, and opinion makers, and committee members, publishers generally gave away 750-1,000 free copies of every book it published.It took time for books to be reviewed in the various library journals as well as in library systems so second year sales were generally higher than first year sales…basically, there was little sales movement until all, or most of the reviews were in.
Children's book departments employed a director of school and library promotion…a department whose job was to keep in close touch with librarians. In addition to the prestige from the N/C awards, most library systems had N/C collections which included the honor books…even if a library had decided to pass on ordering a book, if a book was so honored, it was then ordered to be part of the collection.
To say children's librarians were powerful would be an understatement….most…the vast majority, used that power well, others did not…the horror stories are endless. Speaking for myself, I did not rest easy until I saw the review from School Library Journal…and then, there was the call to the writer…sometimes joyous…sometimes ever so hard/painful….
Many children's book publishers/librarians became good friends…good, wonderful friendships which continue to this day. Still , it was hard being a publisher and knowing it was a review driven business, and if the reviews were negative, one could not do a damn thing to sell that particular book.
In the 80s, with the surge in children's book stores…the chains…Barnes and Noble, etc…expanded their children's sections. Newspapers that rarely gave children's books any coverage published articles about children's books which came out of the closet…and into public view. More than any other book, Harry Potter caused the general public to snap to attention and pay attention to children's books…As stated earlier, the vast majority of the sales came from adults…adults as readers of children's books/YA books…. a sensibility that continues to this day. For years publishers believed that in addition to shelving YA books in a YA section, they should also be shelved in the adult section in bookstores…in libraries….
With the retail market in the 80s, children's book publishers began using marketing techniques that were applied to adult books…techniques designed to sell books to the general public…books that sometimes received mediocre or crummy reviews in the institutional publications sold well, or, very well to the general public. Certain books that sold well in the institutional market sold even better with the push in the retail market. With the shift to a broader market, came a downside…pre-80s, when children's books were sold mostly to school and public libraries, children's book publishers did not deal with unsold books that were returned…the institutional market was regarded as a "slow dollar" and a "clean " business… The profit came from a strong backlist…books that stayed in print and sold year after year…a "clean" business meaning few returns.
Many terrific writers and illustrators have seen a dramatic increase in sales because of a strong presence in the retail market as well as the institutional market. Others…have suffered. Many books do not stay in print over the long haul…many do, that's for sure but it is harder these days…In a conversation I had in the eighties with the late Marilyn Marlow…an agent for children's books beloved by many in the children's' book community, she said she was ambivalent about the shift in market…she represented many writers and illustrators whose books were suddenly selling more than they ever had and were able to earn " a good or terrific living", and she also represented writers and illustrators who were "suffering" because of the shift.
From the chair in which I sit..most mainstream publishers acquire books they know are for the institutional market, others are for the retail market. and still others are for both. And yes, if a publisher believes a children's book is a potential bestseller, there is a big push…
As to writers and illustrators "of color"…many terrific African American writers and illustrators have a strong presence in the retail market as well as the institutional market….Historically, there was a concentrated effort, beginning in the sixties, to discover gifted African American writers and illustrators which continues to this day.
I have said many times on this list that a publisher can publish only what it has an opportunity to publish. Sometimes, the demand for a certain kind of book comes long before writers are writing that kind of book. In this recent discussion, the demand for books by and about Native Americans, has been loud and clear…a mindset led by Debbie... ….the same is true of more books by and about Black American… strong voices from two/three people... voices for books about Arabs, Muslims, Latinos and other groups have been weak….How that "translates" into the world at large is anyone's guess…
What has been utterly depressing, and disheartening, is…. in my mind, I sometimes read a post by a person of color about mainstream publishers and translated it into…what if that that post had been written, word for word, by a white person and was directed at a publisher of color….those posts would have generated outspoken and silent rage…..It is hard, very hard…for a writer and/or illustrator to publish a book that has slow, or lousy sales….it is a fate not confined to people of color and in my bones, has little, if nothing to do with color….Norma Jean
.
On Feb 28, 2014, at 11:34 AM, bookmarch_at_aol.com wrote:
> As the passionate discussions prompted by the CCBC diversity in publishing numbers come to an end, I went back to KT's original post with the link to the current numbers. Looking at those stats, the PW sales numbers Norma Jean sent, and comments along the way, I suggest the following for the next time CCBC posts numbers:
>
> 1) breakdown by genre. That is, of the 3200 books they received, how many were for which age group (as defined by publisher); fiction versus (non-Dewey) nonfiction; series versus individual author; popular culture tie-in (as linked to current film, TV, etc even if focus of the book is some educational goal) v stand-alone.
>
> 2) cross-correlate diversity numbers to genre. That is, are we seeing non-dominant authors cluster in -- or absent from -- certain kinds of books?
>
> 3) cross-correlate genre to retail sales and -- if broadly available from wholesalers -- institutional sales.
>
> 4) add the category of gender what % of books are by men, women, in which categories?
>
> Several commentators have pointed to a gap between population diversity and publishing. The point of further refinement is to examine more closely where are the gaps? In which subjects? In as much as we can tell, how do current trends in what is published match up with what people vote to buy by spending money?
>
> There is an obvious need to bring family income into the picture. That is, America is becoming more diverse, yes. Are American book buyers? This cuts two ways -- how much disposable income do various kinds of Americans have available to use on buying books? And, how do Americans of various backgrounds and economic strata view their $ devoted to children's entertainment/education -- that is, books, vs. apps, games, movies, sports events, theme parks? B/c for example a family that has little extra money but spends that on, say, digital gaming, is most probably not buying based on either cultural authenticity or self-representation but on links to existing popular culture interests.
>
> We may say that popular culture has great limitations, its does. But that gets to a crucial point: I suspect that part of what the CCBC and PW numbers show is the simple fact that overwhelmingly book publishers need to focus on retail sales to make their margins, while the concerns of the CCBC-net community are often those of the institutional market: not, what will an individual buy but, rather, what do we as educators believe should be available -- often for free to the reader -- in school and public libraries? Of course publishers do care about the institutional market broadly, and the reviews and awards that come from ALA and other organizations oriented towards institutions. But the back-list, slow, review-driven sales to libraries can only make up so much of a publisher's list. In turn, of course there is a retail market for books by/about under-represented groups -- and it would be very useful to find an analysis of its buying patterns. Might a marketing person who worked at, say, Jump at the Sun, or Amistad, or Lee and Low be able to share any non-confidential information about, say, what drives sales -- author, illustrator, subject, genre; what are reasonable ranges of expected front-list (first season); 2-year, backlist sales?
>
> And, finally, as I have brought up many times, how does the extreme gender gap in the community of K-12 authors, editors, publishers, reviewers, librarians, teachers figure into who writes books? Which books are published?
>
> In other words, next time, can we begin from more refined numbers so that we can ask targeted questions, and map out the distinct areas of concern that are retail and institutional; mass market and trade; fiction and nonfiction.
>
> Marc Aronson
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Received on Mon 03 Mar 2014 08:45:30 AM CST
