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[CCBC-Net] The Hidden Adult
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From: Perry Nodelman <perry_nodelman>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:16:03 -0500
Oh dear--I didn't intend to send this yet, because obviously, it's nowhere near finished--I meant to hit "save draft," not "send.". And it's obviously much too late to be writing, too, if I'm hitting so many wrong keys and buttons. So let's wait until tomorrow for the final, readable version in something more like English, okay?
With my apologies, Perry
On 16-Jul-09, at 3:02 PM, Nancy Silverrod wrote:
> A couple of books which pretty completely leave out the adult point
> of view in a totally delightful way are Ruth Krauss and Maurice
> Sendak's A Very Special House, and A Hole is to Dig. Both of these
> books focus completely on children's imaginations as they explore
> their daily worlds.
These are interesting ones. they certainly make the claim that they represent children's imaginations--Kraus thanks the children and teachers in some specific schools in A Hole Is to Dig, suggesting that these defintions are actually ones created by real children. And maybe they are--but the copy i have certianly doens;t literally say so, which i find very interesting indeed. Even if they do come orginally form real children, i think the cliam to represent real childlike tihnking is osmewhast undermined by the way theswe sasying of cihldren are bieng prdssrtned here. They are merchandiswe for sale--marked as value bhy adults, and marketed as such. They arte even copyright, my edtions tell me, by ruth Kraus--so if indeed she did first hewrt children say these htings, she has either sotlen their owkr form them or trasndformed iti ntso osmehting genuinely her intellectual property (and she certianly never cfredits any specfic cihld for any one of the sayings--as if osmeone, one cihld's way of phrasing osmehting is the eway all cihldren might say it?) .In fact, her editor, uyrsulas nordsstrom says in one her letters, "It came from Ruth Krauss' listening to children, getting ideas from them, polishing some of the thoughts, exploring additional
"definitions" of her own. It really grew out of children and what is important to them." so there's a claim that
Furthemrore, sendak's illustrations are endeairngly cute and soevishly mischeivousloking carticatures of cihldren--images that ocnfrrim an idea of what cihldreno ught to look like when adultsm ost adore or amdirte them. ore sober youhngstersm ight well notie the difference between these careless pdsriutes and htesmelves, and lear na important lesson aobut how to get adultso n oyur side. , when they are There's also the quesiton of audience. for adults, clearly....but how do they owkr oas cihldrne;s books, exactly? I mean, as books for cihldren. Why owuld a cihld bei nterested in another;s cihld's etc. bot , surely, vecauswe theoyi ufind it cutei r endeairngly cihldlike, as audlts presumably are meant to do. theym, ight recognie it as
"true"--but only, usrely, if we blieve that all cihldren imaigne theo wlrdi ngr4h same way, asi f lal cihldren possess the exact saqme cihldlike mind. Is htat even possible? Or Theym ight, then, respond to it asi nstrection-00how oyu are uspposed to be cvute and ciuhdlike if oyu want adults to approve of you? the "hidden adult" ocntent here is then, the a ciovnentional asdult idea and imasge of cihldhood imaginaitons children are being e3nocurages to accept as a vsion of what tehyo ught most to be like.
As for Eloise--it;s been osk, ong swince i've even loked at it that I can;t really saym uch aobut it. But I'm intrigued by the subtitle of the 1955 edition I see on google books: "a book for precocious grown ups." Is the imaginaiton it depicts genuinely childlike, then, or another idealized representaiton of a way adults like to tihnk aobut what cihldhood is--a way that r5epresrnts what adults feel the loss of and long for and hiope to impose on children--and, Jaqueline roseo uwld asdd, a way of nlotting out our actualy knwledge of the pasin and horror that being a child so often ocnsists of. As Sendka says in the werods i quote as the epigraph for The hidden Adult: "",
_____________ Perry Nodelman http://pernodel.wordpress.com/
Book Trailers: The Hidden Adult: Defining Children's Literature http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3t7JAfPQeA The Ghosthunters2: The Curse of the Evening Eye http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qapDE1Kwnis The Ghosthunters I: The Proof that Ghosts Exist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw0ow7oQV7k
>
>
> The Eloise books have adult characters, who do, at times try to
> impose an adult structure, if not viewpoint on Eloise. However,
> Eloise runs roughshod over adult expectations, and her actions, and
> imagined actions remain in the forefront to delight the reader, with
> fabulous illustrations to pore over again and again.
>
>
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
> Our heads are round so that thoughts can change direction. -Francis
> Picabia, painter and poet (1879-1953)
>
>
>
> Our memories are card indexes consulted and then returned in
> disorder by authorities whom we do not control. -Cyril Connolly,
> critic and editor (1903-1974)
>
>
>
> A closed mind is like a closed book: just a block of wood. -Chinese
> Proverb
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccbc-net-bounces at lists.education.wisc.edu [mailto:ccbc-net-bounces at lists.education.wisc.edu
> ] On Behalf Of Megan Schliesman
> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:50 AM
> To: ccbc-net, Subscribers of
> Subject: [CCBC-Net] The Hidden Adult
>
>
>
> Today we turn to the CCBC-Net topic for the second half of July: Perry
>
> Nodelman's newest book, "T/he Hidden Adult: Defining Children's
>
> Literature"/ (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2008).
>
>
>
>
>
> In "The Hidden Adult," Nodelman explores the commonalities and shared
>
> themes of children's literature, based on a comparison of six books
> for
>
> children written between 1801 and 1993. An examination of the plots,
>
> themes, and structures of "/The Purple Jar//,/" "/Alice in
>
> Wonderland//,/" "/Dr. Doolittle/," "/Henry Huggins//,/" "/The Snowy
>
> Day/," and "/Plain City"// /is the basis for Mr. Nodelman's
> observations
>
> about the ways in which adult knowledge and experience are hidden in
>
> books for young people.
>
>
>
> Perry Nodelman has graciously agreed to join us for this discussion.
> We
>
> know not everyone in the CCBC-Net community will have had a chance to
>
> read "The Hidden Adult," but we hope everyone can get some sense of
> the
>
> book through the CCBC-Net discussion in the coming days and will feel
>
> free to ask him questions.
>
>
>
> I cannot begun to convey the observations in "The Hidden Adult" in all
>
> their complexities and detail. I will say that in the book, Perry
>
> Nodelman argues that the six texts he so closely examines contain
>
> characteristics that can be considered identifiers of children's
>
> literature as a genre-a genre that is almost wholly unique in that
> it is
>
> labeled in terms of its intended audience rather than in terms of
> those
>
> who create it. Of those characteristics, the ones I find most
>
> fascinating to contemplate are those that look at the tension inherent
>
> in the adult writer/child audience relationship, looking at the
> meaning
>
> that adult authors of children's literature convey in texts through
>
> their child characters. He writes, ". . . the texts tend to offer two
>
> different points of view, one childlike and one adult. . . . In being
>
> different, and often opposite, the two points of view imply a conflict
>
> between childlike and adult perceptions and values." He also writes,
>
> "The texts tend to work to encourage child readers to replace whatever
>
> sense they have of themselves and the meaning of their own behavior
> with
>
> adult conceptions of those matters."
>
>
>
> When I think of this adult "intent" in terms of the children's books
> I'm
>
> surrounded by every day, I think about a continuum. At one end are the
>
> books that are adult-centered, burdened by didacticism or adult
>
> nostalgia. At the other are the books that I consider among the best
>
> examples of the children's literature genre: convincingly creating a
>
> child's understanding of events and experiences; in short, offering a
>
> child-centered perspective on the world or some dimension of it. But
> the
>
> suggestion in "The Hidden Adult" is that an adult agenda is an
> inherent
>
> quality in the genre of children's literature.
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what members of the CCBC-Net community think about this
>
> idea. Does it influence your understanding of the genre as a whole, or
>
> of some of the children's books you particularly admire?
>
>
>
> Perry, I know your thinking about this and the other ideas you explore
>
> in "The Hidden Adult" have developed over many years. I'm wondering if
>
> there were specific texts--perhaps among the six you examine in the
>
> book, or others you read along the way--that really helped bring this
>
> idea of children's literature as a genre that in is part about
> conveying
>
> adult ideas and values to child readers into focus.
>
>
>
> Megan
>
>
>
> Megan
>
>
>
> --
>
> Megan Schliesman, Librarian
>
> Cooperative Children's Book Center
>
> School of Education, University of Wisconsin-Madison
>
> 600 N. Park Street, Room 4290
>
> Madison, WI 53706
>
>
>
> 608/262-9503
>
> schliesman at education.wisc.edu
>
>
>
> www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> CCBC-Net mailing list
>
> CCBC-Net at lists.education.wisc.edu
>
> Visit this link to read archives or to unsubscribe...
>
> http://lists.education.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/ccbc-net
>
> Official SFPL use only
>
> _______________________________________________
> CCBC-Net mailing list
> CCBC-Net at lists.education.wisc.edu
> Visit this link to read archives or to unsubscribe...
> http://lists.education.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/ccbc-net
Received on Thu 16 Jul 2009 11:16:03 PM CDT
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:16:03 -0500
Oh dear--I didn't intend to send this yet, because obviously, it's nowhere near finished--I meant to hit "save draft," not "send.". And it's obviously much too late to be writing, too, if I'm hitting so many wrong keys and buttons. So let's wait until tomorrow for the final, readable version in something more like English, okay?
With my apologies, Perry
On 16-Jul-09, at 3:02 PM, Nancy Silverrod wrote:
> A couple of books which pretty completely leave out the adult point
> of view in a totally delightful way are Ruth Krauss and Maurice
> Sendak's A Very Special House, and A Hole is to Dig. Both of these
> books focus completely on children's imaginations as they explore
> their daily worlds.
These are interesting ones. they certainly make the claim that they represent children's imaginations--Kraus thanks the children and teachers in some specific schools in A Hole Is to Dig, suggesting that these defintions are actually ones created by real children. And maybe they are--but the copy i have certianly doens;t literally say so, which i find very interesting indeed. Even if they do come orginally form real children, i think the cliam to represent real childlike tihnking is osmewhast undermined by the way theswe sasying of cihldren are bieng prdssrtned here. They are merchandiswe for sale--marked as value bhy adults, and marketed as such. They arte even copyright, my edtions tell me, by ruth Kraus--so if indeed she did first hewrt children say these htings, she has either sotlen their owkr form them or trasndformed iti ntso osmehting genuinely her intellectual property (and she certianly never cfredits any specfic cihld for any one of the sayings--as if osmeone, one cihld's way of phrasing osmehting is the eway all cihldren might say it?) .In fact, her editor, uyrsulas nordsstrom says in one her letters, "It came from Ruth Krauss' listening to children, getting ideas from them, polishing some of the thoughts, exploring additional
"definitions" of her own. It really grew out of children and what is important to them." so there's a claim that
Furthemrore, sendak's illustrations are endeairngly cute and soevishly mischeivousloking carticatures of cihldren--images that ocnfrrim an idea of what cihldreno ught to look like when adultsm ost adore or amdirte them. ore sober youhngstersm ight well notie the difference between these careless pdsriutes and htesmelves, and lear na important lesson aobut how to get adultso n oyur side. , when they are There's also the quesiton of audience. for adults, clearly....but how do they owkr oas cihldrne;s books, exactly? I mean, as books for cihldren. Why owuld a cihld bei nterested in another;s cihld's etc. bot , surely, vecauswe theoyi ufind it cutei r endeairngly cihldlike, as audlts presumably are meant to do. theym, ight recognie it as
"true"--but only, usrely, if we blieve that all cihldren imaigne theo wlrdi ngr4h same way, asi f lal cihldren possess the exact saqme cihldlike mind. Is htat even possible? Or Theym ight, then, respond to it asi nstrection-00how oyu are uspposed to be cvute and ciuhdlike if oyu want adults to approve of you? the "hidden adult" ocntent here is then, the a ciovnentional asdult idea and imasge of cihldhood imaginaitons children are being e3nocurages to accept as a vsion of what tehyo ught most to be like.
As for Eloise--it;s been osk, ong swince i've even loked at it that I can;t really saym uch aobut it. But I'm intrigued by the subtitle of the 1955 edition I see on google books: "a book for precocious grown ups." Is the imaginaiton it depicts genuinely childlike, then, or another idealized representaiton of a way adults like to tihnk aobut what cihldhood is--a way that r5epresrnts what adults feel the loss of and long for and hiope to impose on children--and, Jaqueline roseo uwld asdd, a way of nlotting out our actualy knwledge of the pasin and horror that being a child so often ocnsists of. As Sendka says in the werods i quote as the epigraph for The hidden Adult: "",
_____________ Perry Nodelman http://pernodel.wordpress.com/
Book Trailers: The Hidden Adult: Defining Children's Literature http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3t7JAfPQeA The Ghosthunters2: The Curse of the Evening Eye http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qapDE1Kwnis The Ghosthunters I: The Proof that Ghosts Exist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw0ow7oQV7k
>
>
> The Eloise books have adult characters, who do, at times try to
> impose an adult structure, if not viewpoint on Eloise. However,
> Eloise runs roughshod over adult expectations, and her actions, and
> imagined actions remain in the forefront to delight the reader, with
> fabulous illustrations to pore over again and again.
>
>
>
> Nancy
>
>
>
> Our heads are round so that thoughts can change direction. -Francis
> Picabia, painter and poet (1879-1953)
>
>
>
> Our memories are card indexes consulted and then returned in
> disorder by authorities whom we do not control. -Cyril Connolly,
> critic and editor (1903-1974)
>
>
>
> A closed mind is like a closed book: just a block of wood. -Chinese
> Proverb
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ccbc-net-bounces at lists.education.wisc.edu [mailto:ccbc-net-bounces at lists.education.wisc.edu
> ] On Behalf Of Megan Schliesman
> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 7:50 AM
> To: ccbc-net, Subscribers of
> Subject: [CCBC-Net] The Hidden Adult
>
>
>
> Today we turn to the CCBC-Net topic for the second half of July: Perry
>
> Nodelman's newest book, "T/he Hidden Adult: Defining Children's
>
> Literature"/ (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2008).
>
>
>
>
>
> In "The Hidden Adult," Nodelman explores the commonalities and shared
>
> themes of children's literature, based on a comparison of six books
> for
>
> children written between 1801 and 1993. An examination of the plots,
>
> themes, and structures of "/The Purple Jar//,/" "/Alice in
>
> Wonderland//,/" "/Dr. Doolittle/," "/Henry Huggins//,/" "/The Snowy
>
> Day/," and "/Plain City"// /is the basis for Mr. Nodelman's
> observations
>
> about the ways in which adult knowledge and experience are hidden in
>
> books for young people.
>
>
>
> Perry Nodelman has graciously agreed to join us for this discussion.
> We
>
> know not everyone in the CCBC-Net community will have had a chance to
>
> read "The Hidden Adult," but we hope everyone can get some sense of
> the
>
> book through the CCBC-Net discussion in the coming days and will feel
>
> free to ask him questions.
>
>
>
> I cannot begun to convey the observations in "The Hidden Adult" in all
>
> their complexities and detail. I will say that in the book, Perry
>
> Nodelman argues that the six texts he so closely examines contain
>
> characteristics that can be considered identifiers of children's
>
> literature as a genre-a genre that is almost wholly unique in that
> it is
>
> labeled in terms of its intended audience rather than in terms of
> those
>
> who create it. Of those characteristics, the ones I find most
>
> fascinating to contemplate are those that look at the tension inherent
>
> in the adult writer/child audience relationship, looking at the
> meaning
>
> that adult authors of children's literature convey in texts through
>
> their child characters. He writes, ". . . the texts tend to offer two
>
> different points of view, one childlike and one adult. . . . In being
>
> different, and often opposite, the two points of view imply a conflict
>
> between childlike and adult perceptions and values." He also writes,
>
> "The texts tend to work to encourage child readers to replace whatever
>
> sense they have of themselves and the meaning of their own behavior
> with
>
> adult conceptions of those matters."
>
>
>
> When I think of this adult "intent" in terms of the children's books
> I'm
>
> surrounded by every day, I think about a continuum. At one end are the
>
> books that are adult-centered, burdened by didacticism or adult
>
> nostalgia. At the other are the books that I consider among the best
>
> examples of the children's literature genre: convincingly creating a
>
> child's understanding of events and experiences; in short, offering a
>
> child-centered perspective on the world or some dimension of it. But
> the
>
> suggestion in "The Hidden Adult" is that an adult agenda is an
> inherent
>
> quality in the genre of children's literature.
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what members of the CCBC-Net community think about this
>
> idea. Does it influence your understanding of the genre as a whole, or
>
> of some of the children's books you particularly admire?
>
>
>
> Perry, I know your thinking about this and the other ideas you explore
>
> in "The Hidden Adult" have developed over many years. I'm wondering if
>
> there were specific texts--perhaps among the six you examine in the
>
> book, or others you read along the way--that really helped bring this
>
> idea of children's literature as a genre that in is part about
> conveying
>
> adult ideas and values to child readers into focus.
>
>
>
> Megan
>
>
>
> Megan
>
>
>
> --
>
> Megan Schliesman, Librarian
>
> Cooperative Children's Book Center
>
> School of Education, University of Wisconsin-Madison
>
> 600 N. Park Street, Room 4290
>
> Madison, WI 53706
>
>
>
> 608/262-9503
>
> schliesman at education.wisc.edu
>
>
>
> www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> CCBC-Net mailing list
>
> CCBC-Net at lists.education.wisc.edu
>
> Visit this link to read archives or to unsubscribe...
>
> http://lists.education.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/ccbc-net
>
> Official SFPL use only
>
> _______________________________________________
> CCBC-Net mailing list
> CCBC-Net at lists.education.wisc.edu
> Visit this link to read archives or to unsubscribe...
> http://lists.education.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/ccbc-net
Received on Thu 16 Jul 2009 11:16:03 PM CDT
