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[CCBC-Net] CCBC-Net Digest, Vol 33, Issue 4
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From: Larry O. Dean <larryodean>
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:14:18 -0600
I agree. I too have been following this thread with great interest, and while I might have missed the larger part of some posts, I'm getting the gist overall.
I teach in the Poetry Center's Hands on Stanzas program in the Chicago public schools. This year, I have 3rd-8th grade classes in three different schools. Two schools have forty minute periods, and one a luxurious fifty minutes. In that time, I read a chosen poem; we discuss it -- usually an open-ended conversation, but sometimes, due to time constraints, my questions may be a little leading; students then write, based on a prompt suggested by the poem; and finally, if time's left, students volunteer to read their work.
I love the discussion part best of each class, and could easily eat up the 40-50 minutes with that alone. I tell my students all the time that I learn from their remarks, and they often give me new ways of looking at a poem
(and subsequently teaching it).
FYI, here are links to the blogs for my three schools. This week was all the same lesson -- music poems. Two other poets-in-residence share the blog with me at Shields, so be prepared to really dive in there.
http://solomonelementarypoetry.blogspot.com/ http://mcphersonelementarypoetry.blogspot.com/ http://shieldselementarypoetry.blogspot.com/
The Poetry Center also publishes an annual anthology of student work. You may find them by searching Hands on Stanzas on Amazon.
Thanks!
Best, Larry
http://larryodean.com http://myspace.com/larryodean http://larryodean.blogspot.com http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=774533207
4joyces at mchsi.com writes:
> Fascinating discussion!
>
> I am torn between Lee's "Read it and stop--go on to math", the sentiment of
> which I love, and wanting kids to discuss poems in order to focus more fully on
> them. When I am teaching in an elementary classroom, the period after reading a
> poem aloud is one of reflection. I ask students to tell me words they liked,
> what they think the mood of the poem is, why a certain phrase has been used.
> But I try to bring it back to the poem in every case: I ask them to back up
> their opinions with examples from the poem. I am hoping this shows them how to
> read carefully, to savor a poem. And it also shows other students what can be
> there, beneath the surface, that they might not have noticed--and thus could not
> enjoy. All of this helps them write poetry as well.
>
> I LOVE it when a student points out something in one of my own poems that I
> never noticed. What a delightful feeling!
>
> Joyce Sidman
> www.joycesidman.com
>
>
> ---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
> From: Randall.W.Wright at comcast.net
> To: ccbc-net at ccbc.ad.education.wisc.edu
> Subject: Re: [CCBC-Net] CCBC-Net Digest, Vol 33, Issue 4
> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 19:15:26 +0000
>
>> Perhaps the professor was right. And maybe Miller was playing a joke. Or maybe
>> the story IS apocryphal. But as an author, when I write a scene in a novel,
>> filler or not, it is born somewhere in my imagination and experience. I find
>> "hidden" meanings all the time in my own work, so why shouldn't the reader.
>> Creativity doesn't just come from the concsious/conscious/cousious (where's my
>> spell check when I need it--told you, I'm a creative thinker not a speller--ah,
>> here it is: conscious). It also comes from that place we authors often claim for
>> our own, even though if our readers didn't have that same place, they wouldn't
>> connect with the work (IMHO). The author's skill comes in committing that
>> creativity to paper.
>>
>> The reader brings her/his experience to the written word, else how could an
>> author make a reader smell/taste/touch the things written about, yet it happens
>> all the time. The same applies to emotional import in the work. This is not news
>> to any of you, I'm sure. I'm just a late bloomer in figuring these things out,
>> after a whole life of just letting the concepts work without understanding why.
>>
>> I must admit, however, that unless I get some sort of meaning from a first
>> reading, I'm loath to give a poem a second try to get to the depths of meaning
>> that might be there. This from the author of "The Geezer in Our Freezer"
>> Bloomsbury Fall 2009. A love poem.
>>
>> Randall Wright
>> -------------- Original message --------------
>> From: James Elliott <libraryjim at embarqmail.com>
>>
>> > There was an old story (possibly apocryphal) about a class that was critiquing
>> > an Arthur Miller (I think!) Play. For the assignment, the professor asked the
>> > class to analyze a certain scene, and explain the hidden
>> > meanings/messages/social commentary Miller put into the passage.
>> >
>> > One of the students decided to try an unorthodox approach to the assignment,
>> and
>> > wrote to Arthur Miller asking him about the passage. Miller responded (I
>> > paraphrase):
>> >
>> > "I merely used that scene for filler, to transition from one view to another.
>> > There was no underlying message or hidden meaning contained therein."
>> >
>> > So the student included that in the paper, footnoted, and attached a copy of
>> the
>> > letter as an appendix. But when the student got the paper back, graded, he'd
>> > made an "F" because that couldn't possibly be right since, after all, the
>> > professor saw all those messages in the very relevant key passage of the play!
>> >
>> > So, I hear ya!
>> >
>> > Jim Elliott
>> > North Florida, USA
>> >
>> > "Libraries allow children to ask questions about the world and find the
>> answers.
>> > And the wonderful thing is that once a child learns to use a library, the
>> doors
>> > to learning are always open ... every child in America should have access to a
>> > well-stocked school or community library"
>> > --Laura Bush, First Lady of the United States
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Kristy Dempsey
>> > To: WriterBabe
>> > Cc: CCBC Net
>> > Sent: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:10:19 -0400 (EDT)
>> > Subject: Re: [CCBC-Net] CCBC-Net Digest, Vol 33, Issue 4
>> >
>> >
>> > But I also think that in the classroom, it's easy to put meaning into
>> > authors' mouths that might not have been intended, or at the very least
>> > to assume it was purposeful when it might have just been coincidental
>> > during the writing process. I think this potentially complicates the
>> > creation of their own poetry, too, for children, if they get the
>> > impression that all poetry must be full of layers of meaning and devices
>> > they don't yet understand, or it's not "good" poetry.
>> >
>> > Kristy Dempsey
>> > Belo Horizonte, Brazil
Received on Fri 04 Apr 2008 03:14:18 PM CDT
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:14:18 -0600
I agree. I too have been following this thread with great interest, and while I might have missed the larger part of some posts, I'm getting the gist overall.
I teach in the Poetry Center's Hands on Stanzas program in the Chicago public schools. This year, I have 3rd-8th grade classes in three different schools. Two schools have forty minute periods, and one a luxurious fifty minutes. In that time, I read a chosen poem; we discuss it -- usually an open-ended conversation, but sometimes, due to time constraints, my questions may be a little leading; students then write, based on a prompt suggested by the poem; and finally, if time's left, students volunteer to read their work.
I love the discussion part best of each class, and could easily eat up the 40-50 minutes with that alone. I tell my students all the time that I learn from their remarks, and they often give me new ways of looking at a poem
(and subsequently teaching it).
FYI, here are links to the blogs for my three schools. This week was all the same lesson -- music poems. Two other poets-in-residence share the blog with me at Shields, so be prepared to really dive in there.
http://solomonelementarypoetry.blogspot.com/ http://mcphersonelementarypoetry.blogspot.com/ http://shieldselementarypoetry.blogspot.com/
The Poetry Center also publishes an annual anthology of student work. You may find them by searching Hands on Stanzas on Amazon.
Thanks!
Best, Larry
http://larryodean.com http://myspace.com/larryodean http://larryodean.blogspot.com http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=774533207
4joyces at mchsi.com writes:
> Fascinating discussion!
>
> I am torn between Lee's "Read it and stop--go on to math", the sentiment of
> which I love, and wanting kids to discuss poems in order to focus more fully on
> them. When I am teaching in an elementary classroom, the period after reading a
> poem aloud is one of reflection. I ask students to tell me words they liked,
> what they think the mood of the poem is, why a certain phrase has been used.
> But I try to bring it back to the poem in every case: I ask them to back up
> their opinions with examples from the poem. I am hoping this shows them how to
> read carefully, to savor a poem. And it also shows other students what can be
> there, beneath the surface, that they might not have noticed--and thus could not
> enjoy. All of this helps them write poetry as well.
>
> I LOVE it when a student points out something in one of my own poems that I
> never noticed. What a delightful feeling!
>
> Joyce Sidman
> www.joycesidman.com
>
>
> ---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
> From: Randall.W.Wright at comcast.net
> To: ccbc-net at ccbc.ad.education.wisc.edu
> Subject: Re: [CCBC-Net] CCBC-Net Digest, Vol 33, Issue 4
> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 19:15:26 +0000
>
>> Perhaps the professor was right. And maybe Miller was playing a joke. Or maybe
>> the story IS apocryphal. But as an author, when I write a scene in a novel,
>> filler or not, it is born somewhere in my imagination and experience. I find
>> "hidden" meanings all the time in my own work, so why shouldn't the reader.
>> Creativity doesn't just come from the concsious/conscious/cousious (where's my
>> spell check when I need it--told you, I'm a creative thinker not a speller--ah,
>> here it is: conscious). It also comes from that place we authors often claim for
>> our own, even though if our readers didn't have that same place, they wouldn't
>> connect with the work (IMHO). The author's skill comes in committing that
>> creativity to paper.
>>
>> The reader brings her/his experience to the written word, else how could an
>> author make a reader smell/taste/touch the things written about, yet it happens
>> all the time. The same applies to emotional import in the work. This is not news
>> to any of you, I'm sure. I'm just a late bloomer in figuring these things out,
>> after a whole life of just letting the concepts work without understanding why.
>>
>> I must admit, however, that unless I get some sort of meaning from a first
>> reading, I'm loath to give a poem a second try to get to the depths of meaning
>> that might be there. This from the author of "The Geezer in Our Freezer"
>> Bloomsbury Fall 2009. A love poem.
>>
>> Randall Wright
>> -------------- Original message --------------
>> From: James Elliott <libraryjim at embarqmail.com>
>>
>> > There was an old story (possibly apocryphal) about a class that was critiquing
>> > an Arthur Miller (I think!) Play. For the assignment, the professor asked the
>> > class to analyze a certain scene, and explain the hidden
>> > meanings/messages/social commentary Miller put into the passage.
>> >
>> > One of the students decided to try an unorthodox approach to the assignment,
>> and
>> > wrote to Arthur Miller asking him about the passage. Miller responded (I
>> > paraphrase):
>> >
>> > "I merely used that scene for filler, to transition from one view to another.
>> > There was no underlying message or hidden meaning contained therein."
>> >
>> > So the student included that in the paper, footnoted, and attached a copy of
>> the
>> > letter as an appendix. But when the student got the paper back, graded, he'd
>> > made an "F" because that couldn't possibly be right since, after all, the
>> > professor saw all those messages in the very relevant key passage of the play!
>> >
>> > So, I hear ya!
>> >
>> > Jim Elliott
>> > North Florida, USA
>> >
>> > "Libraries allow children to ask questions about the world and find the
>> answers.
>> > And the wonderful thing is that once a child learns to use a library, the
>> doors
>> > to learning are always open ... every child in America should have access to a
>> > well-stocked school or community library"
>> > --Laura Bush, First Lady of the United States
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Kristy Dempsey
>> > To: WriterBabe
>> > Cc: CCBC Net
>> > Sent: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 14:10:19 -0400 (EDT)
>> > Subject: Re: [CCBC-Net] CCBC-Net Digest, Vol 33, Issue 4
>> >
>> >
>> > But I also think that in the classroom, it's easy to put meaning into
>> > authors' mouths that might not have been intended, or at the very least
>> > to assume it was purposeful when it might have just been coincidental
>> > during the writing process. I think this potentially complicates the
>> > creation of their own poetry, too, for children, if they get the
>> > impression that all poetry must be full of layers of meaning and devices
>> > they don't yet understand, or it's not "good" poetry.
>> >
>> > Kristy Dempsey
>> > Belo Horizonte, Brazil
Received on Fri 04 Apr 2008 03:14:18 PM CDT
