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[CCBC-Net] Poetic license
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From: Kristy Dempsey <kdempsey>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 09:27:38 -0500
To extend Monica's point (about poetry being presented as something to be figured out) one step further, I'd venture to say that often poetry is presented to children with the goal of trying to figure out what the
*poet* was trying to say, "What does the poet mean when he says...",
"Why does she use the phrase...", which is really just an exercise in futility. Does it matter what the poet was trying to say? Is not the most important thing what the poem says to the child?
Part of the transformative power of poetry is the fact that each reader will see a poem differently, based on their individual experiences, thoughts and feelings, and that their understanding of the poem may even change over time as they come back to read it again and again. The poem itself is transformed by the reader into more than the poet intended or could even know, just as the reader can be transformed, either through discovery or a sense of connection, by the reading of the poem.
What I love most about themed anthologies like Lee's and Ruth's is that the individual poems are wonderful, but take the whole together and there is depth and height and breadth. There is room for the mind and the heart to explore, and often for imagination or curiosity to run beyond the theme of the book. I'd love to hear more about how the collections are put together, balancing the selections of excellent poetry while expanding the theme beyond its borders. Is it sometimes a struggle to find enough unique material to extend the theme broadly?
Kristy Dempsey Belo Horizonte, Brazil
-----Original Message----- From: ccbc-net-bounces at ccbc.education.wisc.edu
[mailto:ccbc-net-bounces at ccbc.education.wisc.edu] On Behalf Of Megan Schliesman Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 10:52 AM To: CCBC Net Subject: Re: [CCBC-Net] Poetic license
Regarding the question of "understanding" poetry, Ruth asks:
"I do wonder, what's to understand? Don't the words have their own songs, rhythms, surface? Is there a need to go under?"
Since I raised the issue of people often saying they don't "understand"
poetry, I want to start by saying that comments about poetry not being understandable frustrate me, and yet it is one I often hear (or it's kin, that poetry is too "intimidating"). There have been comments in the past on CCBC-Net about the frustration many of us have when poetry is presented to children and teens as something to be figured out rather
than listened to and experienced for its own sake I have my own shuddery memories from high school on this front and it was coming back to poetry in college, and even more through my work as a librarian, finding collections like Ruth's in my early years at the CCBC, that renewed my feelings for and relationship to poetry.
I know Ruth, and Lee too, are thinking about my very long initial question (sometimes I can't state something simply to save my life), but
I realize that perhaps the question itself is asking them to break down something that can't be broken down, at least in terms I've stated. That, thankfully, is for them to figure out :)
Megan
Megan Schliesman, Librarian Cooperative Children's Book Center School of Education, University of Wisconsin-Madison
608/262-9503 schliesman at education.wisc.edu
www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/
Ruth I. Gordon wrote:
> On Apr 3, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Ruth I. Gordon wrote:
>
>
>> Megan writes:
>> I'll begin with a question for both Lee and Ruth. I'm wondering if
>> you
>> can each speak to what you think about when choosing poems for an
>> audience of children or teens. People who say they don't like poetry
>> often comment that the reason is because they don't understand it.
One
>> of the things I so appreciate about your fine anthologies of poems
for
>> youth is the wonderful balance between accessibility and challenge.
>> Sometimes the theme of the collection provides the point of
>> accessibility--a lens through which to first begin thinking about a
>> specific poems--sometimes the poems themselves "go down easy" so to
>> speak, even as they may offer much to think about. But there are
also
>> poems that do require readers to consciously stretch and think and
>> imagine.
>>
>> Are you consciously thinking about these ir other qualities when you
>> read poems for potential inclusion in a book for children and teens?
>> Are
>> you looking for qualities you can break down and define, or is it
more
>> about how a poem as a whole strikes you?
>>
>> Big G: To the second paragraph--Yes.
>>
>
> To an interesting item in the first about "understanding"--I would
> like to return to this. It is complex--
> at least about some of the works I choose. I don't think Lee's
> selections are fraught with this problem?
> Yes, I'll tear it apart and return but, I do wonder, what's to
> understand? Don't the words have their
> own songs, rhythms, surface? Is there a need to go under? On this
> question, I would like reader
> response.
>
>> Ruth adds: LICENSE * a writer's or artist's freedom to deviate from
>> fact or from conventions such as grammar, meter, or perspective, for
>> effect : artisticlicense.
>> * freedom to behave as one wishes, esp. in a way that results
>> inexcessive or unacceptable behavior : the government was criticized
>> forgiving the army too much license.
>>
>> Two meaning very much on my mind lately--Big G
>>
>> It will take me a bit of time to respond to Megan's various
>> questions. I tend to think slowly about "answers" because almost
>> nothing has one, most have several, some have none. Sorting out
>> responses ( I prefer the word to "answers") is a long process. The
>> same process also applies to gathering up selections for an
>> anthology. The very word "anthology" goes to the Greek "gathering
>> flowers." (See: the word for "anther" and look into a flower for
>> the anthers.)
>>
>> (I must gather more lovely ((and cheap)) red wine now. I'll return
>> in a goodly time.)
>>
>> Is life a tangent to poetry or v.v.? Ah ha--someone wants an
>> explanation of this throw-away line/thunk (thunk=a heavy thought).
>> Right now here in
>> the Alexander Valley of Sonoma County where I live, almost
>> everything is in flower or bud. The lilacs by my front garden plots
>> are in flower so, of course,I think about Amy Lowell's "Lilacs," and
>> Walt Whitman's "When lilacs last in the dooryard bloomed....." And
>> each first line leads the rest of each
>> works. In turn, that takes the mind to "April is the cruelest
>> month...." and to Robert Browning's Home Thoughts from Abroad, "Oh,
>> to be in England//now that April's there....." And the fact that
>> Emily Dickenson's birthday is in April--the other day, as a matter
>> of fact. Tangents? to what?
>>
>> A statement: A civilized person who is fortunate enough to be versed
>> in a language or languages that have a body of poetry should know
>> the poetry of tha that language and the translated poetry of other
>> civilizations. Aprille--that's when the Canterbury pilgrims wended.
>>
>> A.E. Housman would have thought Sonoma County--right now, this very
>> today, in my very back yard would be "Loveliest of trees, the cherry
>> now//Is hung with blossoms on the bough,...."
>>
>> Nope--this is not a tangent, But oh, my friends, and ah, my foes...
>>
>> Really...when almost anything causes reverberations in the brain
>> with lines of poetry from all our historic yesterdays--it is life.
>> The remainders are a tangent.
>>
>> I must add that I have been unbelievably fortunate in having two
>> really great, sensitive, and disciplined editors shape my
>> gatherings: Charlotte Zolotow and Robert Warren. They disciplined
>> my wild notions and sometimes we fought about them but I was
>> permitted to "have my way," because the works were my babies--they
>> were midwives. "Everybody loves a baby, that's why I'm in love with
>> you, Pretty baby...."
>>
>> I'll return to Megan's questions--given time (and a bit more wine.
>> Lottsa poetry--especially the classics about wine and wine red
>> seas, ...)
>>
>> I raised questions--but you, reader, must settle them for yourselves.
>>
>> Here's one you might wish to ask each of us: What is the difference
>> in approach to gatherings of Lee and those
>>
>
>
>> Big Grandma
>> (who will return anon)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> CCBC-Net at ccbc.education.wisc.edu
> Visit this link to read archives or to unsubscribe...
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>
_______________________________________________ CCBC-Net mailing list CCBC-Net at ccbc.education.wisc.edu Visit this link to read archives or to unsubscribe... http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/ccbc-net
Received on Fri 04 Apr 2008 09:27:38 AM CDT
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 09:27:38 -0500
To extend Monica's point (about poetry being presented as something to be figured out) one step further, I'd venture to say that often poetry is presented to children with the goal of trying to figure out what the
*poet* was trying to say, "What does the poet mean when he says...",
"Why does she use the phrase...", which is really just an exercise in futility. Does it matter what the poet was trying to say? Is not the most important thing what the poem says to the child?
Part of the transformative power of poetry is the fact that each reader will see a poem differently, based on their individual experiences, thoughts and feelings, and that their understanding of the poem may even change over time as they come back to read it again and again. The poem itself is transformed by the reader into more than the poet intended or could even know, just as the reader can be transformed, either through discovery or a sense of connection, by the reading of the poem.
What I love most about themed anthologies like Lee's and Ruth's is that the individual poems are wonderful, but take the whole together and there is depth and height and breadth. There is room for the mind and the heart to explore, and often for imagination or curiosity to run beyond the theme of the book. I'd love to hear more about how the collections are put together, balancing the selections of excellent poetry while expanding the theme beyond its borders. Is it sometimes a struggle to find enough unique material to extend the theme broadly?
Kristy Dempsey Belo Horizonte, Brazil
-----Original Message----- From: ccbc-net-bounces at ccbc.education.wisc.edu
[mailto:ccbc-net-bounces at ccbc.education.wisc.edu] On Behalf Of Megan Schliesman Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 10:52 AM To: CCBC Net Subject: Re: [CCBC-Net] Poetic license
Regarding the question of "understanding" poetry, Ruth asks:
"I do wonder, what's to understand? Don't the words have their own songs, rhythms, surface? Is there a need to go under?"
Since I raised the issue of people often saying they don't "understand"
poetry, I want to start by saying that comments about poetry not being understandable frustrate me, and yet it is one I often hear (or it's kin, that poetry is too "intimidating"). There have been comments in the past on CCBC-Net about the frustration many of us have when poetry is presented to children and teens as something to be figured out rather
than listened to and experienced for its own sake I have my own shuddery memories from high school on this front and it was coming back to poetry in college, and even more through my work as a librarian, finding collections like Ruth's in my early years at the CCBC, that renewed my feelings for and relationship to poetry.
I know Ruth, and Lee too, are thinking about my very long initial question (sometimes I can't state something simply to save my life), but
I realize that perhaps the question itself is asking them to break down something that can't be broken down, at least in terms I've stated. That, thankfully, is for them to figure out :)
Megan
Megan Schliesman, Librarian Cooperative Children's Book Center School of Education, University of Wisconsin-Madison
608/262-9503 schliesman at education.wisc.edu
www.education.wisc.edu/ccbc/
Ruth I. Gordon wrote:
> On Apr 3, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Ruth I. Gordon wrote:
>
>
>> Megan writes:
>> I'll begin with a question for both Lee and Ruth. I'm wondering if
>> you
>> can each speak to what you think about when choosing poems for an
>> audience of children or teens. People who say they don't like poetry
>> often comment that the reason is because they don't understand it.
One
>> of the things I so appreciate about your fine anthologies of poems
for
>> youth is the wonderful balance between accessibility and challenge.
>> Sometimes the theme of the collection provides the point of
>> accessibility--a lens through which to first begin thinking about a
>> specific poems--sometimes the poems themselves "go down easy" so to
>> speak, even as they may offer much to think about. But there are
also
>> poems that do require readers to consciously stretch and think and
>> imagine.
>>
>> Are you consciously thinking about these ir other qualities when you
>> read poems for potential inclusion in a book for children and teens?
>> Are
>> you looking for qualities you can break down and define, or is it
more
>> about how a poem as a whole strikes you?
>>
>> Big G: To the second paragraph--Yes.
>>
>
> To an interesting item in the first about "understanding"--I would
> like to return to this. It is complex--
> at least about some of the works I choose. I don't think Lee's
> selections are fraught with this problem?
> Yes, I'll tear it apart and return but, I do wonder, what's to
> understand? Don't the words have their
> own songs, rhythms, surface? Is there a need to go under? On this
> question, I would like reader
> response.
>
>> Ruth adds: LICENSE * a writer's or artist's freedom to deviate from
>> fact or from conventions such as grammar, meter, or perspective, for
>> effect : artisticlicense.
>> * freedom to behave as one wishes, esp. in a way that results
>> inexcessive or unacceptable behavior : the government was criticized
>> forgiving the army too much license.
>>
>> Two meaning very much on my mind lately--Big G
>>
>> It will take me a bit of time to respond to Megan's various
>> questions. I tend to think slowly about "answers" because almost
>> nothing has one, most have several, some have none. Sorting out
>> responses ( I prefer the word to "answers") is a long process. The
>> same process also applies to gathering up selections for an
>> anthology. The very word "anthology" goes to the Greek "gathering
>> flowers." (See: the word for "anther" and look into a flower for
>> the anthers.)
>>
>> (I must gather more lovely ((and cheap)) red wine now. I'll return
>> in a goodly time.)
>>
>> Is life a tangent to poetry or v.v.? Ah ha--someone wants an
>> explanation of this throw-away line/thunk (thunk=a heavy thought).
>> Right now here in
>> the Alexander Valley of Sonoma County where I live, almost
>> everything is in flower or bud. The lilacs by my front garden plots
>> are in flower so, of course,I think about Amy Lowell's "Lilacs," and
>> Walt Whitman's "When lilacs last in the dooryard bloomed....." And
>> each first line leads the rest of each
>> works. In turn, that takes the mind to "April is the cruelest
>> month...." and to Robert Browning's Home Thoughts from Abroad, "Oh,
>> to be in England//now that April's there....." And the fact that
>> Emily Dickenson's birthday is in April--the other day, as a matter
>> of fact. Tangents? to what?
>>
>> A statement: A civilized person who is fortunate enough to be versed
>> in a language or languages that have a body of poetry should know
>> the poetry of tha that language and the translated poetry of other
>> civilizations. Aprille--that's when the Canterbury pilgrims wended.
>>
>> A.E. Housman would have thought Sonoma County--right now, this very
>> today, in my very back yard would be "Loveliest of trees, the cherry
>> now//Is hung with blossoms on the bough,...."
>>
>> Nope--this is not a tangent, But oh, my friends, and ah, my foes...
>>
>> Really...when almost anything causes reverberations in the brain
>> with lines of poetry from all our historic yesterdays--it is life.
>> The remainders are a tangent.
>>
>> I must add that I have been unbelievably fortunate in having two
>> really great, sensitive, and disciplined editors shape my
>> gatherings: Charlotte Zolotow and Robert Warren. They disciplined
>> my wild notions and sometimes we fought about them but I was
>> permitted to "have my way," because the works were my babies--they
>> were midwives. "Everybody loves a baby, that's why I'm in love with
>> you, Pretty baby...."
>>
>> I'll return to Megan's questions--given time (and a bit more wine.
>> Lottsa poetry--especially the classics about wine and wine red
>> seas, ...)
>>
>> I raised questions--but you, reader, must settle them for yourselves.
>>
>> Here's one you might wish to ask each of us: What is the difference
>> in approach to gatherings of Lee and those
>>
>
>
>> Big Grandma
>> (who will return anon)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CCBC-Net mailing list
> CCBC-Net at ccbc.education.wisc.edu
> Visit this link to read archives or to unsubscribe...
> http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/ccbc-net
>
_______________________________________________ CCBC-Net mailing list CCBC-Net at ccbc.education.wisc.edu Visit this link to read archives or to unsubscribe... http://ccbc.education.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/ccbc-net
Received on Fri 04 Apr 2008 09:27:38 AM CDT
